Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al - Larry Lieber Speaks

Welcome to Part III of the transcripts from the Marvel vs Jack Kirby's estate court case.  You can find Part I, Stan Lee's testimony, here and Part II, John Romita, here.  I don't know about anyone else, but I personally find this stuff fascinating to say the least, as people might probably have guessed by now.

Just to refresh people, the Kirby’s are asking for the keys to Marvel’s kingdom, as stated on their original docket, which reads as such, “This is a civil action seeking declaratory relief arising out of Plaintiffs’ termination, pursuant to the United States Copyright Act of 1976, 17 U.S.C. § 304(c), of prior grants of copyright in and to the original characters and works created and/or co-created by Jack Kirby (a.k.a. Jacob Kurtzberg) (“Kirby”), known as “The Fantastic Four,” “Iron Man,” “Ant-Man,” “X-Men,” “The Incredible Hulk,” “The Avengers,” “Thor,” “Nick Fury,” “Spider-Man,” “Journey Into Mystery,” “Rawhide Kid,” “Strange Tales,” “Tales of Suspense,” “Amazing Adventures” and “Tales to Astonish.”” The docket then goes on to state that, “Between 1958 and 1963, Jack Kirby authored or co-authored numerous original comic book stories featuring a variety of characters, including “The Fantastic Four,” “X-Men,” “Iron Man,” “Spider-Man,” “The Incredible Hulk,” “Thor,” “The Avengers,” “Nick Fury” and “Ant-Man,” which were purchased by Marvel’s Predecessors and published in their following periodicals: Amazing Adventures, Vol. 1, Nos. 1-6; Amazing Fantasy, Vol. 1, No. 15; The Amazing Spider-Man, Vol. 1, Nos. 1-7; The Avengers, Vol. 1, Nos. 1-2; The Fantastic Four, Vol. 1, Nos. 1-21; The Fantastic Four Annual, No. 1; Journey Into Mystery, Vol. 1, Nos. 51-98; The Incredible Hulk, Vol. 1, Nos. 1-6; The Rawhide Kid, Vol. 1, Nos. 17-35; Sgt. Fury and His Howling Commandoes, Vol. 1, Nos. 1- 4; Strange Tales, Vol. 1, Nos. 67-115; Tales of Suspense, Nos. 1, 3-48; Tales to Astonish, Vol. 1, Nos. 1, 3-50; and The X-Men, Vol. 1, Nos. 1-2 (hereinafter, the “Kirby Works”).”

This is a tricky claim as Kirby didn’t write, nor did he draw, The Amazing Spider-Man, disregarding a back-up story in issue #8. There is no proof that Kirby wrote issue #1 of that title, and he certainly didn’t draw it. Marvel, now backed by the might of Disney, are countersuing. Even if the Kirby’s are successful, you can count on Disney to keep fighting to the point where they’ll be the last person standing, so to speak. Hopefully a decent resolution can be found where the Kirby’s can gain some form of recognition for Jack Kirby along with some financial compensation, and Marvel keep the characters. After all I doubt Disney would pay millions for a company only to see it all taken away in a lawsuit.

In January of this year it was Larry Lieber’s turn to be deposed for the Marvel vs Kirby case. As with John Romita’s testimony, it’s hard to see who’d win out with Larry’s statement of events – on one hand he admits to buying his own materials and working the same as Kirby, as a freelancer, but then he also states that his payment checks did indeed have the contentious declaration on the back. Even more damaging for the Kirby case is Lieber’s statements that he submitted full scripts for the first appearances for both Iron Man and Thor, and that he came up with a number of vital aspects of both characters. This can’t help the Kirby’s all that much, as they claim that both Thor and Iron Man were fully formed when Kirby presented them to Marvel, however if the judge does believe Lieber’s first hand testimony then that’d be two characters, at least, that are now clouded.  I do feel for Larry here though, as it's clear from the testimony that he was both flustered and uncomfortable.  For someone of Larry's general disposition, to be questioned in a legal sense, even in a deposition, must have been agony, but he does handle himself well and acquits himself just fine.

Of interest in Larry Lieber’s testimony is that at least six pages are considered to be confidential pursuant to protective order. The two lawyers present are Randi W. Singer, acting for Marvel and Marc Toberoff, acting for the Kirbys.

Deposition of Lawrence Lieber; New York, New York; 7 January 7, 2011
(The testimony starts with Larry Lieber in mid-sentence, being questions by Singer, who is acting for Marvel. The beginning of the testimony would have consisted of Larry explaining his general background and what he was known for)

LARRY LIEBER: …I -- I know I was doing, sometime back, I did The Hulk newspaper strip. That started out with my brother writing it and me drawing it, penciling it, and it didn't do well and he finally said I could write it, and I wrote that for a while. But it didn't last too long and but I don't remember when these things were.
Q: Okay. We're going to focus today on the period from 1958 to 1965, so that's fine.
LARRY LIEBER: Uh-huh.
Q: I think you mentioned that you started working at Marvel in about 1958?
LARRY LIEBER: I could tell you, yeah, it was – it was -- well, I remember the date. This I happen to remember. June, the end of June.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: About then, yeah. '58.
Q: And how did you come to work for Marvel?
LARRY LIEBER: Stan offered me -- I had to earn a living. I had been living with relatives and I was going to the Art Students League studying
(break in testimony)
LARRY LIEBER: …Journey Into Mystery.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: They had about three stories in the magazine, drawn by different people.
Q: And when you say you were writing the stories, what exactly were you writing? I mean, what would you -- what would you turn in? What was the form it came in?
LARRY LIEBER: Oh, I would turn in the script.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: A script.
Q: Okay. Can you tell me what did a script look like?
LARRY LIEBER: What did a script look like? Well, if it was seven-page story, I would have each page what was on the page. Usually, there were six panels on a page and I would describe the action in the first -- in the first panel. I would have to -- I would have to describe the action to the artist in the first panel, and then if there was a caption like so and so entered, you know, here or a monster was coming to town or something, I would have to write the caption and then I would have to write the dialogue.

I also, you know, I also, in doing this, I had to use the sense of the visual. Comics are different from novels in that it's a visual medium, so you have to be -- know that. And it's also sequential, so the artist has to have a sense of sequence and story. But both are doing them, you know, about playing a part.

But a page of script would have panel one, panel two, panel three. Didn't have to have six panels. Sometimes if there was a lot of action, you might play up that panel and only have five, let's say, one panel across.
Q: Okay. So it wouldn't look like – it wouldn't just be a short story, it would be -- it would describe the –
LARRY LIEBER: Oh, no. It would be panel by panel. No. No.
Q: And where would -- how would you get the idea for the story? How would you know what to write about?
LARRY LIEBER: Well, my brother made up the plot and gave me a synopsis.
Q: And your brother is?
LARRY LIEBER: Stan Lee. I'm sorry.
Q: And did all of the ideas for stories come from Stan Lee or was there any other way you would get ideas?
LARRY LIEBER: No, they all came from Stan Lee.
Q: Did you ever work on -- did you ever get artwork that you would then write the dialogue for, or did you always write the script first?
LARRY LIEBER: I always wrote the script first, except later on, I --
Q: We don't have to worry about -- I'm focusing you, I'm sorry, I'm focusing you on the period 1958 to 1965.
LARRY LIEBER: I would think during that period I always did, but there was a time -- but I don't know when it was, that's why I started to say that -- when I once or twice did it differently. But I always wrote a script here.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: I always wrote the script.
Q: Who came up with the ideas for the characters that would be in the story?
LARRY LIEBER: Stan. Well, wait a minute. You say the characters?
Q: Yes.
LARRY LIEBER: Stan. Yes. Yes. Stan, yes. Yes, sure.
Q: Who was responsible for giving you the assignment to write a particular script or a particular --
LARRY LIEBER: Stan.
Q: When he would give you an assignment, did you have a deadline or something that you had to get it back by a certain time?
LARRY LIEBER: I remember -- well, I knew I had to do it fast, and the only thing I remember a little more vividly is with I think it was Jack Kirby where he would say Jack needs work and he was concerned about getting it to him. He said, "Write this," and, you know, sometimes I would write, and if it was weekend, I wouldn't wait until Monday to bring it into the office to give it to Stan, but I remember going over to the West Side, the main post office at night and mailing it.

And I was learning to write in the early years so I wasn't too fast, and Jack was very fast and a wonderful, wonderful artist. So I used to think, gee, well, you know, he draws faster than I can write, but I -- I wrote and mailed it to him.
Q: When you say you were learning to write, what do you mean by that?
LARRY LIEBER: Well, when I started, as I said, Stan said to me, you know, I said I'm not a writer. When he's giving me this, I never thought of writing. He said, and I repeat, he said, "I read your letters and I can teach you what you need." So he did. For the first year or two, you know, I was learning. He would go over my work and, you know, do things. After a while, I did better and I -- and I enjoyed it.
Q: Did he ever make changes to your stories or the scripts you would turn in?
LARRY LIEBER: In those days, yes. Changes in not in the basic story or anything, because I knew how to tell a story as well as anybody, I think, in terms of sequentially and what to draw, what to tell the artist. That was one area because I'm wanting to be an artist myself, and I thought I had a very good sense of the drama and what to put down, what to draw.

But writing was a little different. Stan had his own way of writing and his own -- using as few words as possible, making them count, and he -- he was a good editor. So I learned from him. I learned well enough that I was able to give a course some years later for him.
Q: You mentioned that Stan would give you the synopsis or the plot. How? How would he give that to you? Would he --
LARRY LIEBER: As far as I remember, it was – you mean written. He would give it written to me.
Q: And then after you did the assignment and you -- what would happen? Then you would bring it to the office?
LARRY LIEBER: I would grow to the office with it. Yeah, I would bring it to the office.
Q: And what would happen next?
LARRY LIEBER: He would go over it and, as I said, if it were in the early years, he might correct or change a line or two. But he always used it. He, he -- I never had to, you know, go home and do it again. He was very easy, he was showing me. He said, "Oh, you could have said this. You could have done that," and he'd make some little corrections. And as time went on, he had fewer to make.
Q: Do you know what would happen to the script after Stan went over it and made whatever changes?
LARRY LIEBER: Yeah. It would be sent to the artist, I would guess.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: Whether it was, you know, the various artists, yeah.
Q: Did you ever -- did you have any contact with the story after you turned it in and made whatever changes?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Did you ever have discussions with artists about the stories or the scripts?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: You mentioned Jack Kirby. Did you ever have any interactions with Jack Kirby when he was drawing scripts that you had done?
MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts.
LARRY LIEBER: What's that?
Q: Let me take a step back then.
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: Do you know the story behind the creation of Thor?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Do you know who came up with the idea for Thor?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Did you ever work on the comic Thor?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: What was your involvement?
LARRY LIEBER: I got the synopsis, the plot from Stan, and I wrote the first script of Thor. That was it.
Q: And when you say "the script," that's what we were talking about before that told panel by panel?
LARRY LIEBER: Panel by panel and description of it, yes.
Q: Did you see any artwork on Thor before you wrote the script?
LARRY LIEBER: I don't recall seeing any. I don't know.
Q: Do you know who, after you turned in the script, do you know who the artist was that drew Thor?
LARRY LIEBER: I believe it was Jack Kirby.
Q: Did you have any conversations or any interactions with Jack Kirby about the Thor book?
LARRY LIEBER: No, not that I recall.
Q: Did you come up with any of the names in Thor?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: What did you come up with?
LARRY LIEBER: The civilian name of Don Blake I made up. And I also came up with his hammer. I made that, which people know about. My Uru hammer, I created that.
Q: And where did you get the name Uru hammer?
LARRY LIEBER: I just made it up, as far as I know. I might have read it. I used to -- Stan liked the way I made up names, civilian names, and I used to, from my years of doing these, what do you call it, these fantasy books, monster books, and I used to look at the back of dictionary, Miriam Webster had biographical names and geographical, so I would look in towns and if I liked the town, I might put it. And it was kind of fun and he liked what I did.

Now, I don't know if I found "Uru" someplace or I just made it up or whatever. I know I made it short because I felt that Thor might be around a while and I was always worrying about the letterer or somebody. I was worrying about somebody else's feeling, and I figured, well, if I make it U-R-U, there's not that much to letter. And since nobody knows the name of it, I'll make it a short name. So that's why I did that.

And Don Blake I just thought sounded like a doctor and, you know, to fit the personality. I tried to get names that fit the -- the person.
Q: Who came up with the name Thor, the hero name?
LARRY LIEBER: Not me. I don't know. Stan, I guess. But I don't -- yeah, yeah, Stan.
Q: And just to follow up on something you said, you mentioned a letterer, what was the job of the letterer?
LARRY LIEBER: Well, when the -- when the -- I give a
(break in testimony)
LARRY LIEBER: …and I made it up." He looked a little surprised and walked away, and then I stopped writing it and he would -- I don't know if he was writing it or somebody else, but they gave it another name, which I believe was the authentic name from Bulfinch's Mythology. So ...
Q: Was it the usual practice that you would write a book for a few issues and then you would move on to something else?
LARRY LIEBER: It seems that way. You know, I don't remember. I -- I've been looking at the books and it seems with a few of them I did. I – I wrote a few books, the first issue or the first couple issues, yes. I don't, yeah, I don't know how it came about that way and why I moved on. I don't recall.
Q: Who would make the decision about who was going to write the scripts for a book?
LARRY LIEBER: It would be Stan, I'm sure, as the editor.
Q: Are you familiar with a comic called Iron Man?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: And what was your involvement with Iron Man?
LARRY LIEBER: I wrote the first script for Iron Man also.
Q: And who asked you to write the first script for Iron Man?
LARRY LIEBER: Stan. Stan Lee.
Q: Stan Lee. And what -- what did he provide you with or what did he ask you to do?
MR. TOBEROFF: Assumes facts.
LARRY LIEBER: I'm sorry, I --
Q: If you understand the question, you can --
MR. TOBEROFF: That's okay. I'm just objecting for the record.
LARRY LIEBER: Oh, okay.
MS. SINGER: Lawyer stuff.
LARRY LIEBER: What was the question, if I may?
Q: Fair enough. How, how did you come to write the first script for Iron Man?
LARRY LIEBER: He made up a character and he wanted -- and he asked me to write it. And he told me the plot, you know, somehow I got synopsis, and I -- and I wrote it. And again, I made up the civilian name.
Q: And the "he" there is Stan Lee?
LARRY LIEBER: Thank me for Anthony Stark. I'm sorry, what?
Q: I'm sorry, the "he" in that was Stan Lee?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes, Stan Lee.
Q: So you came up with the name Anthony Stark?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: And where did you come up with that name?
LARRY LIEBER: I don't know, but I guess I -- I had been writing so many. Again, either I just made it up or I felt it was a name that would fit a guy who was very, very rich and a lady – you know, I wanted -- I thought it sounded distinguished and wealthy or something. Anthony Stark.
Q: I agree. I like it. After you wrote the first – strike that. I'm sorry. And the script that you wrote for Iron Man, was that a full script with the panel breakdown?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes. Yes.
Q: Okay. After you finished writing the first script for Iron Man, what happened? What did you do next with the script?
LARRY LIEBER: I sent it to the artist who -- yeah. Or else I -- I either brought it to the office and handed it to Stan, who must have sent it, or else I sent it. I don't know.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: Probably I brought it to the office, I would say.
Q: Do you know who the artist was who drew the first Iron Man?
LARRY LIEBER: You know, I don't remember. It was either Jack or Don Heck, I think. Other people know, and if I had the book, I could tell you. I think it might have been Don Heck, but I'm not sure.
Q: Did you ever look at the pencilled drawings after or look at the inked drawings or look at the final book after you had turned in the script? Did you look at a book again?
LARRY LIEBER: No, I would say I don't recall looking at the book. I don't recall anything until the book came out and I got a copy of it and saw. There would be no reason for me to look at it.
Q: Okay. Do you know whether – strike that. I'm sorry. Did you come up with any of the other elements of Iron Man?
LARRY LIEBER: You mean the -- in the story parts? I don't recall.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: I really don't.
Q: Let's talk about Ant-Man.
LARRY LIEBER: That was another one I wrote, and I came up with his name too.
Q: What was Ant-Man's name?
LARRY LIEBER: Henry Pym, P-Y-M.
Q: And how did you come up with his name?
LARRY LIEBER: I think I probably -- in the back of Miriam Webster somewhere there was somebody Pym. And I thought "Henry" sounded like a scientist and "Pym" made it catching and different and exotic. So I came up with that.
Q: How -- what was your involvement, besides coming up with the name Henry Pym, what was your involvement?
LARRY LIEBER: I think I wrote the first -- the first script. I think I did. I believe I did.
Q: And how did you come to write the first script?
LARRY LIEBER: The same way as the other. Stan had said he had an idea for a character, he wanted to write the story and for one of the books and told me or gave me, you know, a synopsis and I went home and wrote it.
Q: Do you remember what the plot was for the first Ant-Man?
LARRY LIEBER: No. No. I'm sorry, I don't.
Q: What did you do after you finished writing the script for the first Ant-Man?
LARRY LIEBER: Well, either I sent it to the person. I think the Ant-Man, I think it was Jack Kirby who drew it, so I would have either sent it to him, if it was late, or I would have brought it to the office and then handed it to Stan.
Q: And just to be clear, the -- when you wrote the script for Ant-Man, that was also with the full breakdown of the panels?
LARRY LIEBER: I believe so.
MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to form.
Q: That's fine. He just didn't like my question.
LARRY LIEBER: Okay.
Q: How did you get paid for the work that you were doing for Marvel, 1958 to 1965?
LARRY LIEBER: It was the same before. It's vague. I put in a voucher. I had a certain page rate, which I don't recall exactly. There were various page rates. I did not get paid as much as Stan, you know, his rate. And I put in a voucher. I assume I - I -- I must have put it in and given it to Stan's office, perhaps his secretary or somebody, I think I did, and then they paid me and I -- I don't remember.

I remember being -- I spent a lot of time in the office then, and I remember being in the office and Milly, who was the bookkeeper, would sometimes come -- would come around and give out checks to the people on staff, I believe, and also to freelancers. Or perhaps the freelancers had a different hour or different day, I don't know. I just remember people saying sometimes, "Oh, you just missed Milly," and if you missed Milly when she was handing out the checks, then you went to bookkeeping and went over to Milly and she opened her drawer and said, "Here's your check." But if you didn't come into the office, I don't remember if they sent them to you. Maybe they then sent them to you at home. I -- I don't recall getting it at home. I know I got paid.
Q: That was my next question. Did you get paid for all the work you did for Marvel?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes. Yes.
MR. TOBEROFF: Objection.
Q: Do you know what Milly's last name was? Do you remember?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: When you received -- were you always paid by check from Marvel?
LARRY LIEBER: You mean as opposed to cash?
Q: Yes.
LARRY LIEBER: No. It was always check. Always check.
Q: Do you recall –
MR. TOBEROFF: Just a second. Could you do me a favor and just pause before answering a question so I have room to object before? I'm supposed to object before you answer.
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
MR. TOBEROFF: I'm supposed to object before you answer.
LARRY LIEBER: Okay.
MR. TOBEROFF: Sometimes if you answer too rapidly, I would be talking over you. I don't want to do that.
LARRY LIEBER: Okay.
MR. TOBEROFF: Thank you.
Q: When you would receive a check from Marvel, was there anything printed on the check besides, you know, your name and the amount?
MR. TOBEROFF: Objection.
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
MR. TOBEROFF: Go ahead.
Q: You can answer.
LARRY LIEBER: I paused.
Q: Good work. Was there anything, just to be clear so for the record --
LARRY LIEBER: Yes, there was something printed on the back.
Q: And what was printed on the back of the check?
LARRY LIEBER: I don't recall the exact words, but the gist of it was that I was giving up all rights to it, that the work, you know, now is with the company and -- and I don't remember the exact wording, but I think it was something "giving up your rights" or "all rights." That was the way I interpreted it anyway. I didn't think much about it because I felt the only reason I was doing it was to get paid, you know.
Q: And do you recall that those words or something to that effect being on the back of every check you got from Marvel for that period from 1958 to '65?
MR. TOBEROFF: Objection as to form.
LARRY LIEBER: I don't know the year, you know, all the years and I don't know if it was. I remember in the early years seeing it. Afterwards, I had been so used to it that I wouldn't have noticed if it was still there or not. I didn't think anything of it, so I don't remember if it lasted until '65 or when it stopped or occasionally or whatever.
Q: Do you have any recollection that it stopped at some point?
LARRY LIEBER: No. No.
Q: Let's talk about The Rawhide Kid. Did you have any involvement in The Rawhide Kid?
LARRY LIEBER: Oh, yes. Yes. I wrote The Rawhide Kid and I drew it. It had been written, yeah, before me by Stan and Jack Kirby.
Q: So did you write the first issue of The Rawhide Kid?
LARRY LIEBER: No. No. No. No, I -- I, no, it -- it came when Jack moved on to doing super-heroes.
Q: What -- how did you come to work on Rawhide Kid?
LARRY LIEBER: I don't remember whether I initiated it or Stan offered it to me. I -- I liked – it was an opportunity for me to write and draw the same strip, and that appealed to me. I felt I would have more control over it. And at that
(break in testimony)
MS. SINGER: 19 out of 20 -- 19 out of 30. I'm sorry. The very last line on page19.
MR. TOBEROFF: "Getting back to the writing aspect"?
MS. SINGER: Yes, carrying over.
Q: And you say, "They were full scripts and I didn't think of Jack when I wrote it at all. All I thought of was will Stan like this or will he tell me, 'Larry, this isn't good, you can't do this.' I didn't want to hear something like that." Is that consistent with your recollection?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: There's a reference here to "Marvel style." Do you know what that is?
LARRY LIEBER: I believe so. You want me –
Q: What's your understanding of what Marvel style was?
LARRY LIEBER: The Marvel style is what Stan did, or I think I said in the interview it began around the time of the super-heroes and with Jack Kirby, perhaps with others, I don't know. Jack might have been -- I think Jack was the first. And where he would discuss a story or a plot with the artist and the artist would write it -- not write, I'm sorry. The artist would lay it out and draw it with enough knowledge about what the story is and leave room for dialogue to come later.
Q: And the "he" there was Stan Lee?
LARRY LIEBER: I'm sorry?
Q: The "he" when you said "he"?
LARRY LIEBER: Stan Lee. It would be Stan Lee and the artist.
Q: Okay.
LARRY LIEBER: Yeah, that would be -- and I think that was called the Marvel style.
Q: The way -- when we talked about the first script for Iron Man and the first script for Thor and the first script for Ant-Man, were those Marvel style?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to form.
Q: Was the first scripts for Marvel -- strike that. Let me start again. Were the scripts that you wrote for Iron Man, Ant-Man and Thor, were those Marvel style?
LARRY LIEBER: No.

(At this point there was a break where testimony was taken ‘off the record’ at the requests of Marvels lawyer. When Larry Lieber went back ‘on record’, he was being question by Toberoff, who is acting for the Kirby Estate)
Q: You mentioned that you have never been deposed in a lawsuit before.
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Have you ever submitted a, what we call a declaration or affidavit in connection with a lawsuit?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Do you know what a declaration is?
LARRY LIEBER: I would imagine it's a statement of some kind that you sign or you write. And so, no, not that I recall.
Q: Did you -- were you ever interviewed in connection with any lawsuit previously?
LARRY LIEBER: No. No. The only, and this isn't interviewed, but, no, no, no, no, no.
Q: Moving on to your -- a new subject --career at Marvel, you testified that you began doing freelance work for Marvel in approximately June 1958; is that correct?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: And you were writing scripts?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: And those scripts were purchased by Marvel?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: You also at times did artwork?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes. Yes.
Q: And that artwork was also purchased by
Marvel?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
MS. SINGER: Objection to form. Assumes facts. And now this is the part where I ask you same thing he asked you: If you can just give a pause so if I have to jump in with an objection.
LARRY LIEBER: Oh, I didn't -- I'm sorry.
MS. SINGER: That's okay.
LARRY LIEBER: I didn't hear. I'm -
MS. SINGER: No worries. No worries.
LARRY LIEBER: I'm trying to think of the answers so much and I -- yeah, I'll wait.
Q: During all the time you did work with Marvel, did you have a written contract with Marvel?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
MS. SINGER: Good work. Good pause.
Q: When you did free -- when you did freelance work between 1958 and 1964, you did not have a written contract, correct?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Actually, I said "correct," so your -
LARRY LIEBER: Yes, it's correct.
MS. SINGER: You have to give a pause so he can object to his own questions too.
Q: Now, when you submitted your freelance work to Marvel, whether it's script or artwork, was it -- was it your understanding that Marvel was obligated to purchase that material from you?
MS. SINGER: Objection. Assumes facts.
LARRY LIEBER: My understanding they were not obligated.
Q: And was it your understanding that when they did buy your work, that they owned all rights to it?
MS. SINGER: Objection. Assumes facts.
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: And that's because they had purchased it from you?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: Now, during the period when Marvel was buying your work, did you submit any work, whether scripts or artwork, to any other publishers?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Do you know of other, any other writers or artists who are working freelance, on a freelance basis with Marvel, who at that time were also submitting freelance work to other comic book publishers?
LARRY LIEBER: I -- I'm not certain. I know there were artists who work for other companies. I'm not certain whether it was at the same time they were working for Marvel. There were artists and writers who had worked -- I was almost the only one in the profession who couldn't work for another company, which, in this case, the most likely one would have been DC, because Stan was my brother. And -- should I go on?
Q: Please.
LARRY LIEBER: And once I tried, because I couldn't get work from Marvel and I sent some samples of my -- not original artwork because I didn't have it, but I sent some comic books over to DC through a friend of mine, Frank Giacoia, who had worked for them, they knew him. And they didn't give me the work, and Stan had said he wasn't surprised that they didn't because they would be suspicious of me working for them while I'm Stan Lee's brother.

So I always felt I couldn't get work from any other company, and some years later, I met the man who was the, I guess, art director there and we were -- we were chatting, and I happened to bring this up about I sent work over and I never got it, and he looked at me in surprise and said, "You mean that was on the level?" I said "Yes, I needed work."

So, so that was it for me. For others, I don't think that was the case. They could go from one to another, and some of the artists would actually play, you know, one company against another in the sense of saying, "Oh, I've been offered more money there," so if the art director wanted to keep him, he had to, you know, give him -- give him a little more.
Q: Now, again, during the period 1958 to ‘65, where were you living at the time?
LARRY LIEBER: I was living in Tudor City.
Q: And is that where you did your freelance work?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes. I had a furnished room in somebody's apartment. I did my freelance work there.
Q: And did you pay for your own supplies, whatever they were?
LARRY LIEBER: I believe so, yes.
Q: So your own paper and pencils and writing implements?
LARRY LIEBER: Yeah, I -- yeah, I guess.
Q: Did you work on a typewriter?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: And did you pay for that typewriter?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes, I -- I remember I went with Stan and I bought it once. We went to a typewriter store on Lexington Avenue and I paid for it, sure.
Q: Now, as a freelancer, if your work was rejected, you wouldn't be paid for that, would you?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
LARRY LIEBER: I felt that they didn't have to pay me for it. It depends. And usually for me, as I saw it, work wouldn't be rejected because they know who they're dealing with and they know what you can do. But they, if they just wanted you to make corrections, they might say, in later years anyway, I think they would have said, "Well, put in a voucher," if they wanted to be nice, "Put in a voucher for production work. You're doing a little production work. Change this or change that."

It didn't happen to me usually, except one instance where I had to do things and I wasn't paid for it.
Q: What is the -- what is the instance you can recall where you had to redo something and weren't paid for that?
LARRY LIEBER: It was after I had done The Rawhide Kid and I was trying, trying to earn a living doing some drawing of covers and also writing, and I wrote various stories.

Well, Marvel was at that time putting out black and white, what we call black and white books. And I don't remember the specific story, but I was working on something and maybe a zombie book or a horror book or some such thing, and I -- I was given -- I had to make up a story.

I made up a plot and I brought it in to the editor, and the editor thought it wasn't good enough and told me to go back and rewrite it, the plot, work on it some more, develop it. So I went back home and I did so, and I came back and I think either he didn't like it a second time or he accepted it, but there was another story that he made me redo again.

My -- the reason I remember is that I was worried about paying my rent, and I wondered, if he doesn't like this, how often do I have to keep redoing this plot. Finally, you know, he did like it and I was allowed to write the script and I got paid for the script.
Q: So you got paid for the script but you weren't paid for your redoing the plot a number of times?
LARRY LIEBER: No. Because if I had been, I might not have been so concerned about my expenses.
Q: Now, when you were paid by the page for the purchase of your work, did they take out any taxes from your checks?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: Did they -- did Marvel provide you with any paid vacation?
LARRY LIEBER: No.
Q: None whatsoever?
LARRY LIEBER: No. None whatsoever.
Q: For all the time you worked there?
LARRY LIEBER: That I did freelance work for them? No.
Q: Did Marvel provide you with any health insurance or health benefits during the time you worked there?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: When was that?
LARRY LIEBER: Years later.
Q: So not in the period 1958 to 1965?
LARRY LIEBER: No. No. No. No. I don't think so,
(break in testimony)
Q: Moving to a different subject, you testified earlier that it was your recollection that there were legends on the back of checks you received from Marvel for your freelance work?
LARRY LIEBER: Writing on the back, yes.
Q: And we'll just call that writing legends for purposes -
LARRY LIEBER: Okay, I didn't know the term. Yeah, something printed.
Q: And is it fair to say you don't know when those legends first started appearing?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
LARRY LIEBER: I think I had them at the very beginning when I started writing. I think I had them then because I -- I don't recall thinking there was something new, but perhaps, perhaps they weren't there. So I don't really know.
Q: And was it your understanding that the import of the writing on the back of these checks was that by signing the check and accepting payment for your work, you were transferring over to Marvel all rights in your work?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
LARRY LIEBER: Yes, it was my understanding.
Q: And do you recall -- strike that. On the checks you received for your freelance work, did they have language stating that your work was work made for hire?
LARRY LIEBER: No. No.
Q: When is the first time you heard the phrase "work made for hire," if any?
LARRY LIEBER: The first time. I don't know which came first, but I've only heard it recently in the last year or so, once from you using it to me in a conversation, and then I -- I looked up the case out of curiosity on the Internet and they were talking about it and they mentioned it as being an important thing or was it work for hire or not.

And then there was -- maybe not there, but I know I -- maybe it was -- it was there and also in the New York Times they had an article about this case some time ago, and in the article they mentioned again what it was about.

I -- I don't understand the things very well.
(break in testimony)
LARRY LIEBER: Well, this must have been a Hulk story and I have the originals at home. I don't remember when I first got them. I don't remember the year, but I obtained them when they were discarded.
Q: Can you tell me how you came into possession specifically of these drawings?
LARRY LIEBER: They -- I was in the office, the Marvel office. It probably was at -- no, it must have been at the -- on 57th Street when they were there on Madison, and Jack Kirby came out of Stan's office from -- and from the direction of Stan's office. He may, probably, he had come out of Stan's office, and he seemed upset. And he took the drawings, he had these drawings, he took them and he tore them in half and he threw them in a trash can, a large trash can.

And I, since I was such a big fan of his, I knew that at the end of the day, they would be discarded, you know, and would be trash. And I -- I saw it as an opportunity to have some of his originals to keep, to look at and study, and so I took them out of the trash can.

And there were other people in the office, but nobody else seemed to have noticed this, which I was glad about, and I just took them, walked over to where I was sitting and put them in my case. And I took them home and I taped them together, you know, I taped them all, and I kept them and I've kept them all these years to look at them and, as I say, to study them.

Q: If you look at the center of the page, you see a line going through the center of the first page, the third, fourth, fifth and sixth pages?
LARRY LIEBER: Yeah.
Q: Do you see that line?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes, I see the line.
Q: Is that because those pages were originally ripped in half?
LARRY LIEBER: Yeah, that's where it was ripped and I have tape on them.
Q: And the black marks on the left and right-hand margins -
LARRY LIEBER: Scotch tape.
Q: -- in this photostat copy are scotch tape?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: Have you scotch-taped them together?
LARRY LIEBER: Yes.
Q: What was your understanding of why or your impression of why Jack Kirby was upset when he tore these up and threw them in the trash?
LARRY LIEBER: I didn't know. I didn't speak to him. I assumed, seeing a man walk out of the office and tear his artwork up, that -- or I thought probably they were rejected and he was annoyed or disgusted. I didn't, you know, and I didn't know what it was. I didn't hear anything, so I just -- that was my first assumption, but I didn't know.
(Lieber Exhibit 6, an excerpt from Jack Kirby Collector Forty-One, marked for identification, as of this date.)

Marvel Worldwide, Inc. et al v. Kirby et al - John Romita Speaks

Welcome to Part II of the transcripts from the Marvel vs Jack Kirby's estate court case.  You can find Part I, Stan Lee's testimony, here.  This time around I've decided to post the partial transcript of John Romita.  There are gaps in this transcript, and I can't wait for the entire testimony for everyone to be released.  These files were finally released to the public on the 25th of February, and I'm sure that they'll be talked about it many magazines for months to come, or at least until the dust finally settles, if it ever does.

One of the more interesting aspects of John Romita's testimony revolves around the creation of Wolverine.  This is going to be a bone of contention because the Kirby estate are going after the X-Men, which Marvel can then argue was revitalised by the introduction of new characters, which were not created by Kirby.  Indeed the movies have a mix of Kirby and non-Kirby characters, and as the Kirby estate have made a move on the X-Men movies, and spin-offs, Marvel will be able to prove that Kirby had nothing to do with Wolverine.  On the other hand, as Romita states, Stan Lee had nothing to do with Wolverine either, so that throws some doubt into the mix.


John V Romita, Garden City, New York Thursday, October 21, 2010

JOHN ROMITA: For whatever I do. Freelance – I put in a freelance voucher and they pay me. I also get royalties, some royalties.
Q: Can you estimate approximately how much money you might get from Marvel in a year, just a ballpark?
JOHN ROMITA: Sometimes -

MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to time.
MS. SINGER: You can answer the question.
JOHN ROMITA: Yeah, sometimes as little as 7 -- 6 or $7,000 in a year, sometimes as much as 11, 14 depending on what's selling in the reprint department, and sometimes they take – they have made a series of collections and whenever I am in a collection, I get a check, sometimes $20, sometimes $200, and occasionally a bigger check when it's a big project.
Q: Let's focus on when you were at Marvel the first time while you were in the service and you went up there in the early 1950s. Would you consider yourself a freelancer or an employee at that time?
JOHN ROMITA: Freelancer. No -- flying without a parachute. Absolutely no security. No unemployment insurance, because I didn't have a job. No perks, no medical insurance, no nothing. Every year I would save 2- or $300 and then the government would raise the unemployed -- the -- I forget what the tax was. There was a tax that was applicable to freelance people, and that tax went up just about whatever I had saved, so I generally broke even every year.
Q: And how were you paid? What was the basis for your compensation?
JOHN ROMITA: I would do a certain amount of pages at a certain rate, $25 a page, $30 a page. I would do ten pages, $300. I would sign a voucher for $300 worth of work and they would pay me two weeks later or something. And I would be responsible for the taxes. I don't believe they took the taxes out. I'm not sure.
Q: Where did you do your work? Did you do it in the Marvel office?
JOHN ROMITA: No. I worked home.
Q: Did you ever go into the Marvel offices?
JOHN ROMITA: Only to deliver the work, and occasionally have to stay in the bullpen where there were tables, other people doing production work, I would do corrections that Stan would demand. If he didn't like a certain look or a certain line, I would change things. That was common.
Q: How -- can you describe briefly what the process was for creating a comic book in the 1950s?
JOHN ROMITA: It was a shooting script similar to a film shooting script. It was a script with a title and a certain amount of pages allocated and they would say page 1, panel 1, the man walks through the door of the building and tells people "good morning everyone," that kind of thing. There are three people in the room. They give you -- they gave you directions on what is appearing. Then they had a caption at the top nine times out of ten which said "early one morning," something like that, "next day," and then there were balloons to the characters. So I would have to decide on the size of the panels, depending on what was going on, where to place the captions and the balloons to the people, the dialogue balloons, and allocate the space for the illustration to explain what was happening in the story, to describe it.
Q: Do you know who wrote those scripts?
JOHN ROMITA: There was maybe a half a dozen writers working for Stan at the time. There were western writers, there were mystery writers, there were war stories, romance. So I remember three or four names vaguely. Bernstein and -- I don't remember most of them. Most of the stories I did Stan Lee would write.
Q: Who decided which artist got which scripts?
JOHN ROMITA: Stan Lee. He was the editor in chief. He was the editor and only writer on staff. The rest were -- all these other writers were freelancers, like myself. They were home working, Connecticut, Carolina, California, wherever they were. So everybody was working at home except for Stan and a production manager, which was Sol Brodsky at the time, and his secretary. It was a very small operation up at Timely. Very small.
Q: After you did your drawings from the script, then what happened?
JOHN ROMITA: I would turn in the pencils so that they could have them lettered in ink, and then if I were inking it, I would get the pages back and I would ink them. After a while, especially when I was working at DC, I would pencil and ink them and leave space for a letterer to do the balloons, because I had become so familiar with the exact allocation of space, so it saved time. I didn't have to go back and pick up the pages again.
Q: Did you ever do that while you were at Marvel in the 1950s?
JOHN ROMITA: I think I probably did occasionally towards the end of the '70s -- the first seven years when I got so familiar and Stan trusted me, I think I -- he would say "don't bother bringing it in to be lettered, just ink it up and we will have it lettered." It was just a matter of expediency and saving time.
Q: Do you know who came up with the ideas for the stories?
JOHN ROMITA: I think -- my memory is that the writers would submit a synopsis, like a half-a-page synopsis saying this is going to be a story about a cattle baron and rustlers and Indians and Stan would say "I like that story, add a pretty girl," that kind of stuff, and then they would write the story. Stan probably did all the selection. He might have -- he might have even written some synopses himself and handed them out to writers to do this. Stan's brother was a young writer and he would do the same thing. He would give his younger brother a synopsis and the younger brother would do the script.
Q: Do you know his brother's name?
JOHN ROMITA: Larry Leiber. Lawrence Leiber, I guess.
Q: What would happen to the script when you brought it back after it was inked and penciled, penciled and inked?
JOHN ROMITA: Well, that's interesting. I assume they just destroyed it. I'm not sure. Maybe he just saved it for future use. I do remember after six or seven years that I would get eerily similar story lines. If I would do a western, I'd say to Stan, "you know, I could swear I did this story before." They would change the names -- some writer would change the names and give -- or maybe it's just a coincidence that they had the same idea five years later, but I did remember doing a lot of duplication. It was a sausage factory kind of thing, just churning them out. Very hard to keep tabs on things. Mostly memory.
Q: When you would bring the pencils back to the office, would anybody look at them?
JOHN ROMITA: Stan Lee.
Q: And what would he do?
JOHN ROMITA: He would tell me if there was anything that needed to be corrected. He would tell me "don't do this too much in the future, do more of this, do more of that." I remember one time I -- for some reason I was doing a documentary type of thing or a science fiction type of thing and I did a little bit more elaborate rendering on the inking, which was a terrible mistake, because Stan Lee said "I love that technique" and I said "oh, my God," and he adventures in the west, love stories and war stories. So it was rather generic.
Q: Okay. So can you give me an example during that time period of a correction that Stan might have asked for?
JOHN ROMITA: He would ask for sometimes a smile on a face instead of a frown. In other words, if an artist is not thinking, sometimes he doesn't read every little subtlety in the description or in the dialogue. He might just do an automatic expression or no expression and he would say "you need more expression." Stan was always very good. Most editors were not as careful. They would take your work and never say -- they would grunt and take it and you don't know if you were right or wrong. Stan would always make sure you knew if you were right and when you were wrong, he told you, which was how I learned. Practically everything I learned was because of that extra attention he gave to things. He used to say "it's okay now, but don't do this in the future," that kind of stuff, which was always good instructions.
Q: Was that also the case when you were at Marvel in the 1950s, that if you got -- if you did the work, you would be paid for it?
JOHN ROMITA: Oh, yes.
Q: Even if they didn't use it?
JOHN ROMITA: Well, unless it was a very badly-done job, I don't -- I don't remember ever seeing that. I think Alex Toth, one of the best artists in the world, once submitted a story to Roy Thomas and it was so different than Roy had asked for that he never used the story. I don't know if he paid him or not. I think he did, but that would have been an occasion when, I think, the editor or the writer would have had a right to say, "well, listen, you did this so absolutely contrary to what we wanted, we can't use it." He may have just thrown it back at him. I don't know. Because Alex Toth was one of those individualists who didn't believe in listening to anybody else.
Q: That would have been later, that wouldn't have been in the 1950s?
JOHN ROMITA: No. I think that was in the '60 -other, going up the West Side Highway. I would have never done it, but Jack Kirby does it and Stan Lee accepted it. And I ended up doing the drawing and made it work and they loved the story.
Q: Now, why was it necessary to have a pacing guide?
JOHN ROMITA: Because I was not familiar with the way Stan wanted the stuff done and I had not -I had not seen the books. See, I never -- I never knew what was making them tick, the same way as DC didn't think -- didn't know.
Q: Did you get a script when you were back -- this is 1965 -- at Marvel?
JOHN ROMITA: No. It was a plot. Wait a second. I'm not sure. I think it was a plot.
Q: And what do you mean by a plot?
JOHN ROMITA: A plot is either a written description of what the story is saying. At the beginning, there will be a fight for five pages, Daredevil will end up wounded, will go limping to his girlfriend's house and she will dress his wounds. Just a general sequence of events. Generally a page long, maybe a page and a half. Or like I foolishly did, a verbal plot. We would get together and trade ideas.
Q: Who would get together?
JOHN ROMITA: Stan and I would get together in a room and say, okay, the villain is going to be The Lizard and The Lizard is going to turn into The Lizard on page 3. He is a doctor, a one-armed doctor, and he turns into The Lizard and his family is kidnapped and he is now tearing up the city trying to find his family. That's about all we would get. And then I would have to do the nuts and bolts sequential between every episode -- every little thing that happens you have to tie them together and make them sensible, so the artist's problem -I was terrified because I had always worked with a script. This was the first time I was deciding what was going to go on the splash, what was going to go on page 2, what was going to go on page 3. It was very difficult for me, very hard, but it turned out to be the greatest thing for the industry and for me, because the comic -- the comic medium had been a script first and visual second and this made it visual first and script second, which was probably the greatest innovation, completely done for expediency sake. Had nothing to do with anything except expedience. They didn't -- he didn't have time to write the scripts. So he was feeding plots to artists to keep them busy temporarily. At first he used to say "I will send you a script in two days, so start the story," and it ended up being the entire story would be verbally dictated over the phone or in a personal interview with the artist.
Q: Why would he switch from scripts to plots?
JOHN ROMITA: Only expedience. Because he was doing seven or eight major titles all by himself.
Q: And "he" is Stan?
JOHN ROMITA: He used to split -- Stan Lee. Stan Lee would split the week sometimes and work two days home, three days in the office, sometimes two days in the office and three days at home, whatever it was. He would write four scripts in one day, bring them in the next day, and then the following day he would then stay home and do four or five more scripts. But when he was behind, when he couldn't keep up with the artists and he did not want the artists to stay idle, because the deadlines were looming, he would give them a descriptive verbal or written -- quickly-written synopsis of what to do. And that's how the plot first and script second, script third came about, which was called the Marvel method, which I believe made the comic industry what it is today. I believe there would be no comic industry if it weren't for that.
Q: Was that how all of the comic books at Marvel were done in the mid '60s?
JOHN ROMITA: I think so. There were some scripted. Rawhide Kid was still being written by Larry Leiber. Some of the other second line -- teenage romance books were still done, I think, by script. I'm pretty sure. I'm not too sure -- I'm not a hundred percent sure on that, but I believe that's the way it was -the ones that Stan had to write were generally plot -- plot first, plot, pencils, script.
Q: And when you say "script" in that the writer and it took a little bit of hard work from pencilers to do it, but it ended up being good for a penciler too, because it stretched his muscles and stretched his capabilities and his results.
MS. SINGER: Do you need a break?
THE WITNESS: No, not yet. If anybody else wants a break, I will wait.
BY MS. SINGER: Q: So when you got back to Marvel in the mid '60s, Stan asked you to do Daredevil. How long did you stay on Daredevil?
JOHN ROMITA: I did twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen, seventeen, eighteen -- I think I did from twelve to eighteen. Nineteen I was off the book and on Spider-Man.
Q: And why did you switch to Spider-Man?
JOHN ROMITA: He and the Spider-Man artist disagreed on almost everything.
Q: "He" is?
JOHN ROMITA: Steve Ditko.
Q: Okay.
JOHN ROMITA: Steve Ditko had started Spider-Man with him -
Q: With -
JOHN ROMITA: With Stan. I'm sorry.
Q: That's okay.
JOHN ROMITA: Stan and Steve Ditko were doing Spider-Man for 38 issues plus annuals, 40-plus issues, and it was the second most -- second best selling book in the Marvel stable. Stan asked me to use Spider-Man as a guest star in Daredevil for two issues, number 16 and number 17, I believe, and I put Spider-Man in and drew him as well as I could and it turned out that he was feeling me out as a possible replacement. I didn't know that he and Ditko were at odds so extremely, but they ended up not being able to work together because they disagreed on almost everything, cultural, social, historically, everything, they disagreed on characters, so he asked me "do you think you could do the book?" I assumed foolishly that Ditko would not stay away too long, because if I would have had a hit series that was three years and growing in audience, I would have never left it, so I attributed the same kind of sense to him, which turns out he had no intention of coming back. I thought I was going to do a short couple of months fill in and I'd go back on Daredevil, once again showing I don't know what I am talking about. And I ended up doing seven straight years and maybe fifteen years on and off on Spider-Man.
Q: How did it go when you first started drawing Spider-Man?
JOHN ROMITA: It was very difficult, because Ditko's -- I felt obliged -- I felt the reader needs not to have a jarring change on a hit book. If you are a Spider-Man fan and you are buying it for three years, I don't think you would like to see a different style and a different approach. I felt the obligation of all artists who replace another artist to simulate and use the same style, at least temporarily, at least for a while, and I didn't expect I would have to stay on it long enough, needed what we call the indoctrination, meaning the Stan Lee approach to comics and how to handle it, how to approach the story, the excitement level and the dynamics of the story, and I used to be able to slowly -- slowly but surely I got used to every instruction Stan gave and I would start to do it whenever he wasn't around, so I became a de facto art director without pay, without portfolio, without anything. And -
Q: What were your responsibilities as the de facto art director?
JOHN ROMITA: Well, they were nothing written out. I just ended up doing some of the things that Stan would do if he were in the office. Whenever he was not in the office, they would come to me and ask me "tell this guy what Stan would like," and so young artists used to come to me and it led to eventually an apprentice program which I supervised later on after Stan Lee level.
Q: So when Stan was there you mentioned that one of your duties was a correction artist. What was a correction artist?
JOHN ROMITA: Sometimes artists would bring in the story and leave out something or put in something that he objected to and he would ask me to make a change.
Q: Stan would?
JOHN ROMITA: Stan Lee would ask me to -sometimes he didn't like a girl's face, some artists are very good at girls, at drawing girls, and some are not so good. So if a guy did a girl that he thought was not as glamorous or not as effective as it should be, he would ask me to make the changes. I used to change a lot of people's faces for which I got a reputation of being an egomaniac. They thought I was initiating it. I was just following orders like a Nazi guard. And so I -- whenever somebody's costume was wrong or whenever the setting was wrong or if it was a night-time scene and it should have been a daytime scene, all of these little things fell into my lap to the point where we would then hire some people to be around to help out. More than one person was hired to help me out with that. I also was given the assignment of doing cover sketches.
done, then you can -- then you know what costume to put on the person and what situation to do because it has not been done until the penciling gets done.
Q: You mentioned villains. Who had the idea for what villains were? How did villains come about?
JOHN ROMITA: Stan Lee or whoever was writing the story. Eventually other editors and writers would be on staff. So whoever was writing a story and introducing a character would come to me and say "we would like a character called The Rhino" or "we would like a character called The Shocker." Sometimes they came and said "we have a character we would like to have, he is a vigilante, we want to call him The Grim Reaper." He turned out to be The Punisher. They would just come in with a name. Some editors later on -- Stan would just give me a name. Very seldom had any visual to offer me. He would give me a name and say "The Rhino" and I would do -- devise some kind of a costume that showed rhino elements and a villain element. Nine times out of ten he accepted my drawing. Occasionally he would say, "no, that doesn't look right, add a little this, put a cloak on him, don't put a cloak on him, put a mask on him, don't put a mask on him." So it was give and take, but invariably most of my ideas were accepted.
Q: And in the 1960s, the late 1960s, would anybody other than Stan have been giving you the ideas?
JOHN ROMITA: It's hard to tell when Roy started to make requests. Probably before 1970 Roy was asking for things too and we used to work together with cover ideas. Sometimes we would work out sketches in a very rough way and give them out to artists, each artist that needed a cover idea. 90 percent of the time it was Stan in the '60s. Once the '70s came Stan was not always in the office and always very busy probably as each conglomerate that took over the company -- Marvel would have different demands on him and give him a different position. He would go from editor in chief to president of the company in some instances, so his duties changed and whoever was left with editor in chief assignment I would then be at his mercy and at his beck and call.
Q: At Marvel in the 1960s who was responsible for deciding which artists would draw which stories?
MR. TOBEROFF: Objection to 1960s as -- do you mean after 1965 when he worked there?
MS. SINGER: You can answer the question.
JOHN ROMITA: Stan Lee decided. As far as I remember, in the '60s Stan Lee would decide. Later on when Stan was not in the office as much sometimes the production manager would make a decision like that, because he was keeping tabs on who was available and who had time, who was fast, who was slow. So other people did make that decision later on.
Q: Were there any other artists who were working in the offices full-time?
MR. TOBEROFF: Same objection. Vague as to time.
MS. SINGER: You can answer the question.
I couldn't take those weeks where I couldn't produce enough to pay my bills. So it was all rather casual. The same thing -- Marie went from being a production person and a colorist to a penciler in a gradual circuitous way. Larry Leiber suddenly wanted to become an artist and he started -- he gave up his writing assignments and became an artist. Herb Trimpe worked there. And we had all of the look of a bullpen, but it sort of like grew like a fungus. It didn't -- it wasn't ever planned. It just happened. Things just occurred.
Q: What was the mechanism for payment for your freelance work?
JOHN ROMITA: Whatever pages I did outside the office I would vouch for.
Q: What was the process of vouching for them?
JOHN ROMITA: If I did ten pages on a weekend, I would vouch ten pages of Spider-Man and -- I don't know how they did the bookkeeping, because some of it was done on staff and some of it was done on freelance. God knows what mayhem we caused in the -
Q: Was there a form that you filled out or was there a voucher?
JOHN ROMITA: It was a voucher, an actual small slip with the name of the book, the number and month of the book, how many pages, your rate, and you sign it.
Q: And then what would happen after you filled out the voucher?
JOHN ROMITA: I would submit it to the editor and the editor would process it through the bookkeeping department and they would send me a check. Checks used to be like every two weeks or something, once a month. I'm not even sure. It varied. Especially with different incarnations of conglomerates.
Q: Do you recall would there be anything printed on the check?
JOHN ROMITA: There was a disclaimer on the back. No disclaimer.
MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to time.
MS. SINGER: You can answer the question.
JOHN ROMITA: It was -- it was fairly clear. It was saying that we were giving up the rights to anything that was done in the books, the future rights to them, so we -- I wanted to cash the check, so I signed it.
Q: I am going to show you something that, for the record, has already been marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 2 at the deposition of Stan Lee on May 13, 2010.
Mr. Romita, don't worry about the front of this. I just would like you to turn to the last page of Plaintiff's Exhibit 2.
JOHN ROMITA: The back of the old checks.
Q: Okay. I know this isn't your signature. It's a little hard to read.
JOHN ROMITA: No, that's John D'Agostino.
MR. TOBEROFF: I would like to object to this exhibit because the -despite the inferences in the affidavit, which I find somewhat misleading, the check is actually, I believe, a 1987 check. If you look at the markings on the back of the check, it says City National, JE-87, so it's a 1987 check we are talking about.
Q: So, Mr. Romita, I know it's a little hard to read, so, for the record, of the back of the check, we are looking at Plaintiff's Exhibit 2, says: "By acceptance and endorsement of this check, payee acknowledges,
(a) full payment for payee's employment by Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc., (b) that all payee's work has been within the scope of that employment, and (c) that all payees’ works are and shall be considered as works made for hire, the property of Marvel Entertainment Group, Inc." Do you see that?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes. I read it many times.
Q: And is that similar to what you recall being on the backs of your checks?
MR. TOBEROFF: Objection. Vague. "Similar."
JOHN ROMITA: Basically it's the same. Same -- it always went over the same territory and to the point where some of my colleagues were threatening not to cash the checks.
Q: Do you recall approximately when it was that your colleagues were threatening not to -
JOHN ROMITA: I think somewhere in the late '70s. They would threaten, but, of course, they would cash the checks eventually. Barry Windsor Smith thought it was unreal. I don't know what he was creating, what he felt he was creating, but the point is they tried it. I never -- it never occurred to me not to sign the check.
Q: In the '60s when you were drawing Spider-Man and Daredevil, who did you think owned the rights to Spider-Man and Daredevil?
JOHN ROMITA: Marvel Comics.
MR. TOBEROFF: I am just going to make a running objection so I don't have to interrupt the flow of this. When you say "in the '60s," my objection is we are really talking about after 1965, so I am going to have a running objection. Whenever you say "in the '60s," my objection is it's vague as to time.
MS. SINGER: Okay. You can have a standing objection to that.
MR. TOBEROFF: Thanks.
Q: Mr. Romita, did Stan ever reassign a book or a character that you were working on to somebody else?
JOHN ROMITA: Yeah. He would have replacements for me, substitutes, guest artists do Spider-Man if he needed me on another book. Occasionally Captain America and then at one time Fantastic Four obviously needed to be done and he would ask me to do them and someone would fill in on Spider-Man for me during those periods. I sometimes did three, four or five months on Captain America and I did four issues, I believe, on Fantastic Four. Spider-Man was done by John Buscema and Gil Kane in those instances.
Q: Do you know why he would reassign books or have artists do different things?
JOHN ROMITA: I never questioned it. I assumed it was because Captain America needed help and he didn't have a proper artist to do Captain America to his liking and he liked the way I did Captain America, so he would -- he used to use me like a bullpen pitcher. I would come in and relieve. Whatever he felt was a bad situation, I would do the book and revive it and sometimes he used me to do -- to establish a certain style and direction in the book and then he would give it to somebody like Jim Steranko or somebody else to carry it on after I would go back on Spider-Man.
Q: We talked about this a little bit, but who would write the dialogue?
JOHN ROMITA: The person who wrote the script, Stan Lee in his cases, Roy Thomas in his cases. They wrote all the dialogue.
Q: Did artists ever write dialogue?
JOHN ROMITA: The only thing we used to do, because we worked from a plot, we used to write notes above and below the artwork and sometimes in the margins to -- we would make notes and say -- to remind him what we had talked about in the plot and this is my response to it and this is how I'm building up to it. So yes, remember that this is -- we are now going into the fight phase and such and such, on the next page we would go to -- so there were instructions by the artists as a reminder to the writer what we plotted, or if we were deviating from it slightly. Say I needed to add a panel here because we forgot how he was going to get from the east side to the west side in thirty seconds. You know, that kind of stuff. So a lot of writers disregarded those things, and when you do the artwork, you are faced with the reality of actual bridges and connections.

You can't just make believe --Spider-Man used to swing to Manhattan from Queens, go on the rooftop, take an elevator down and come out as Peter Parker, and I used to tell Stan -- and I was such a fanatic for believability and sense, common sense, I said, "Stan, what did he do, how did he -- where is his costume?" He said, "its underneath." And then he would forget. Sometimes he would have him go into a doctor's office and take off his shirt and be examined and I would say, "Stan, he has got the costume on underneath." He never thought of those things. I had him so browbeat with my reality check that he once made me for a year take off Peter Parker's shoes and I had to put them on -- tie the shoelaces and put them around his neck so that as Peter Parker he could walk up a wall, because somebody told him -- after all the times I had tried to make him think realistically, somebody told him, "well, how can he walk up the walls when he has got shoes on?" His spider abilities doesn't -- he should have even taken his socks off. The point is I had to do the damn shoes for at least a year or six months. That's the -- I also created a web pack where Peter Parker would take his clothes and put them in a web sack and put them around on his back like a knapsack so that when he got to New York he could take his clothes out of the web sack, put them on and leave his -- and go downstairs, you know. In other words, now at least you know he could put his clothes on. Where the hell were his clothes all the time? You know. So I was a realist and Stan was always -- "it's not important. The reader doesn't think of those things." Well, I think of them. I can't stand it that way. So that's the kind of stuff we used to have. That's where all of the changes come from.
Q: So what would Stan do with notes or the dialogue in the margins?
JOHN ROMITA: I used to write notes that I thought were clever. I'd say "maybe he should say 'what's up'," you know, something like that.

They sounded clever to me while I was doing the drawing. 3 in the morning everything sounds clever. He invariably would not use them, and I asked him once "why wouldn't you use -- why wouldn't you let him" -- he said something similar. He said, "because I can't speak in somebody else's vernacular." He says, "when I am writing my characters, I am writing in Peter Parker's personality and Aunt May's personality and I write the captions in my personality. If I start putting your personality in there, I am going to confuse the reader." So he used to -he told me -- he invariably did not use anything that was in the margins that was cleverly suggested by the artists, because he said he did not want to stray from his normal approach. He had a dialogue going with the reader. Saying "dear reader, this is your editor speaking right now." He used to do that. It used to drive me crazy. I used to tell him "you are puncturing the illusion." It's like opening a door in the theater and letting the sunlight in and everybody realizes they are watching a movie now. I said "you are ruining" -- he said, "it doesn't matter. I am talking to my readers."
Q: Do you know whether it was just your dialogue he wouldn't use? Would he use anybody else's dialogue in the margins?
JOHN ROMITA: I don't think so.
MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for speculation.
JOHN ROMITA: I don't think so. I don't think he ever -- I think he -- more than once I've heard him saying he avoided anybody else's expressions in the scripts.
Q: Who had the final say on what the dialogue would be, what the characters would say?
JOHN ROMITA: Stan.
MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to time.
JOHN ROMITA: Stan edited the book until the minute it was yanked out of his hands to take to the publisher and nobody had anything to say after that.
Q: When did you first meet Jack Kirby?
JOHN ROMITA: Shortly after -- between July of '65 and January of '66 I brought some artwork in and Jack was sitting doing a correction the way I eventually would do all the corrections on a Steve Ditko cover, Jack was making a change, and I was introduced to Jack Kirby, who ten years earlier, twelve years earlier had been my idol when I was a kid and Captain America came out. It was like meeting, you know, the president of the United States.
Q: Why would Jack Kirby have been making changes to a Steve Ditko cover?
JOHN ROMITA: Because of Stan's long-honored tradition. Whoever was caught in the office when he needed a change was subject to the assignment. If you came in, you had to have a pencil with you. If you didn't have a pencil with you, you were out of luck. But Jack was amenable to making the change. Stan didn't like something Ditko had done on the cover and Jack changed it. Whenever I -- even in the first seven years before Marvel Comics existed I would go in and deliver a mystery story, four pages, and hope for another script. Stan would say, "while you are here, can you do me a favor and change -- this is Arthur Peddy's romance story here. Would you change this expression, would you change this figure, would you add a car in this scene." He did it all the time. No pay. "Just do me a favor." You know, and the inference was you want a script, do me some corrections.
Q: Did you ever make any changes to any of Jack Kirby's work?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes. And it was hard for me, because I idolized the man's stuff. I used to change occasionally girl's faces. Now, Jack used to do girls that I loved. I loved his girls. But Stan used to find sometimes something that he didn't like, an expression, two wide a face, too narrow a face, mostly too wide, and he would ask me to adjust it. He liked the way I did one of the female characters in Captain America better than the way Jack did it, so I would occasionally change the faces. Much to my chagrin, people accused me of being an egomaniac, again, because they thought I was the one changing it. Since I was a de facto art director, they said, "look this Romita, he is changing everybody's work."

Barry Smith almost put a contract out on me because I changed somebody -- a girl's face on a Conan cover. To this day I still don't know why he is talking to me. We are friends, but I know he wanted to kill me then.
Q: Whose idea were those changes? Were they ever yours?
JOHN ROMITA: Uh-uh, never. I would never change anybody -- I had to change Jack Kirby's work, Gene Colan's work, John Buscema's work. I idolized all of these guys. I would -- it violated me to have to do it. I cringed. And I will tell you, the worst thing is initially we didn't have the equipment or the technology to do it less obtrusively, because originally we didn't have photostats and Xeroxes to work with. I erased things. To this minute I -the hair on the back of my neck stands up when I am thinking I am erasing a Jack Kirby face and putting my face in there. That, to me, is a criminal act. I did it because I had no choice. Stan asked me to change it. We had no technology. As soon as I was art director and Stan was on the west coast and we had the technology to have a Photostat, I devised a system with iodine to erase things on a Photostat with iodine and I would get a clean Photostat, perfect surface, and eliminate a face. So I would take a Photostat of a page or a panel, I would iodine the face out, I would put in the face that stand wanted or the editor -- Roy Thomas or whoever was the editor then, and we would paste that over the artwork. At least I could say to myself when the art goes back to the guy I idolized, he could peel it off and you could see his original art. Then I felt better. But until we had the technology, I used to actually deface artwork that I idolized. And it was not fun, but I did my duty as I was instructed.
Q: Did it ever occur to you not to do it if Stan asked you to?
JOHN ROMITA: It occurred to me, but I never figured it was worth it. You know, one thing I gotta constantly remind people of. I did not envision a world where anyone would not only care or even remember that there was a comic industry. From the '50s on I assumed the comic Stan were buddies. Every time he visited, "I want to give him a daily, I want to give him a Sunday." I would take one of my Sunday pieces of art and sign it "to Andre, John Romita." He would sign it, and we would give it to him. I gave away artwork that is now selling for $50,000. I gave them away in the office. That's my -- that was my -- my take on the future of comics and the future worth of the artwork was absolutely who is gonna give a damn about this. In five years nobody will even remember we lived here. So help me. That was my take. So as much as I cringed changing it, I never felt serious guilt because I thought who is gonna care. That's my defense. I mean, maybe I would still get convicted of a crime. I don't know. That would be my defense.
Q: Do you know whether Jack Kirby was working from -- do you know how he would get his stories in the 1960s?
MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for -- vague as to time and calls -
JOHN ROMITA: No, no, he was plotting them the same as I was. With Stan.
MS. SINGER: Let him say his piece and then -
THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
MS. SINGER: That's okay.
MR. TOBEROFF: It's not my piece. I make certain objections as to form in a deposition, so I am just objecting to the form of the question and then after I object, you can answer, but I have to get my -- sorry to interrupt. I have to get my objection in before you answer.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry I interrupted you.
MR. TOBEROFF: So my objection is vague as to time. Calls for speculation. Calls for opinion testimony.
JOHN ROMITA: I was present at at least two plotting sessions of John -- Jack and Stan Lee. They were the same as my plotting sessions and the same as Gene Colan's and Herb Trimpe's and John Buscema. John Buscema actually did his plotting by phone, because he lived two hours away from the city. But anybody else who went in, Colan would come in, Jack Kirby would come in, I was at the office, we would plot in Stan's office, and with Stan and Jack, most of the time -- some of the times Jack would -Stan would drive both of us home on a Friday night or whatever night he was in plotting. They would finish or almost finish and then Stan would say, "come on, I will drive you guys home." He would drop me off first and then he would take Jack, who lived about twenty minutes past me in the same general area of Long Island. So I was in the back seat of Stan's Cadillac on two occasions that I remember distinctly, maybe more, where they were continuing what they had not finished in the office, continued plotting.

I remember one particular Fantastic Four plot about the birth of the son of the two major characters in the Fantastic Four. Mr. Fantastic and The Invisible Girl were having a baby and it was a boy and they were discussing whether the boy would be gifted, a mutant like they were and gifted with powers and talents, or whether he would be a normal boy, and I remember the reference -- I even referred to them and said it's like the Munsters. There was -- in the Munsters television show they were all bizarre mutated people except for the little boy who was raised -- or there was a girl. I think there was a girl. She was the only normal person. So I said you could make the kid a normal guy in a family of mutants. And then they said they considered that, and then said, "well, I don't know" -- and I was thinking to myself, wow, wouldn't it be great if they had him and you never know if the kid has powers and slowly but surely he would exhibit -- for instance, he would levitate a glass or something. And so I am thinking all these things while they are talking and I remember them talking. One guy would make a suggestion, Jack would say, "that's not a bad idea, but what if we did it this way," and then Stan would say, "okay, but only if we did it that way" and "only if we did it this way." They were both talking different plots and it's -and the reason I know it is because when Stan and I would plot, I foolishly did it from memory. I never recorded it. Gene Colan was his setting, I would do everything he would ask for, but I had to do the nuts and bolts of the story. When it comes to characters, he would ask me "give me a character called The Shocker." I would create -- he would tell me the -- he has the powers to shock people with electric bolts from his wrists. So he shocks people.
Q: Stan would tell you that?
JOHN ROMITA: Yeah, he would say that's what The Shocker is. So I would create a costume for it. I didn't create the name. I didn't create anything else. I didn't create the powers. I just created the costume. I put him in a quilted outfit, believe it or not. I thought it was going to be laughed at. Stan accepted. He was quilted so he could absorb his own shocks. The next time it would be The Rhino. He is a man in a rhino skin. He could drive himself through a wall. Just butt head right through a wall. I just did a guy in a rhino skin with his face showing through the open mouth of the rhino. Brilliant. Stan accepted it. And then he would take the character and make him valid. He would make him valid by his behavior, by his dialogue, by his -- the results of what he does, the mayhem he caused, and he would give the guy a personality. That's all it was.
Q: Who owned those characters?
JOHN ROMITA: Marvel Comics.
MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for a legal opinion.
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
MR. TOBEROFF: It's okay.
Q: What was your understanding of who owns those characters?
MR. TOBEROFF: Calls for a legal opinion.
MS. SINGER: You can answer.
JOHN ROMITA: I assumed Marvel Comics owned them. I know Stan didn't own them and I didn't own them.
Q: When Jack Kirby would bring his pages in when you were working in the office, what would happen to Jack's pages?
MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to time.
JOHN ROMITA: I remember one thing about them. As back of a costume. I remember one pirate shot he did was glorious. It was on the back of the page. I am sure -- I haven't seen all of the Kirby collectors magazines and oversized books, reprints. I'm sure some of those are in there, some of the glorious drawings. John Buscema used to do works of art on the backs of his pages just to loosen up his wrist before he started to pencil. He would do beautiful animals, beautiful girls. People used to copy the front of the page with Buscema and the back of the page. That's all I could tell you. That's my memory of seeing those pages. Until I had to make changes on them.
Q: Did Jack know that you were making changes to his artwork?
JOHN ROMITA: You know, I never asked him.
MR. TOBEROFF: Vague as to time.
JOHN ROMITA: I never asked him. I assumed he did, because I assumed he would look at the book and see things were changed, although, frankly, I think Jack probably never even bothered to look.
Q: Why do you think that?
(break in testimony)
JOHN ROMITA: …scratch his nose. He will lose an eye. So I said all right, make them retractable. They retract. Like a cat puts its claws out and retracts them, right? Make them retractable into his forearm. That's all I said. So I created that part of him. But I didn't create the name. I just created the costume. And I never considered that I created him. I always tell people I created the costume. But I didn't name him and I did not give him a personality.
Q: Who would give characters personality?
JOHN ROMITA: The writer.
MR. TOBEROFF: Vague.
JOHN ROMITA: I mean, the writer is the one who gives him his dialogue and his history. The history of a – we used to have a series of books called the Marvel -- I can't remember the name of it, but it was the history of every character, the look of it and how it was devised and what his history was, and that was written by the editor or the writer. It could have been the editor, it could have been the writer. The editor sometimes tells the writer to give him a history of the character. So the personality of the character is done by the writer and the editor. The look of the character is done by the artist.
Q: Did Jack Kirby have anything to do with Wolverine?
JOHN ROMITA: I don't think so. No. In fact, Wolverine was not a member of the original X-Men. It came -- it was in a Hulk book the first time. He was a character -- a Canadian villain out of Canada. That's another part of the history that was created that I didn't create. He was a Canadian and he appeared in the Hulk. He had nothing to do with the X-Men. He was added to the X-Men when the X-Men was being done by Cockrum. Dave Cockrum was doing the artwork and Len Wein was writing it. They created the new X-Men and they included Wolverine in the X-Men. That's all.
Q: How about Kingpin, how did Kingpin come about?
JOHN ROMITA: Again, like The Rhino and The Shocker, he would say "next month I want
(break in testimony)
Q: …the book. The number on the bottom is 396 is the bottom number there, if that's easier to look at. Page 34 of the internal numbering.
JOHN ROMITA: I have it. "Super Slurpee."
Q: Yes. If you look on the left side of the page there, it says "RT." Do you see where it says that the first time? The first little thing with the italics.
JOHN ROMITA: Roy Thomas, yes.
Q: Okay. So Roy Thomas asks you - says: "He was one of the best guys around for drawing animals in action. So how did things go bad for you at Timely?" And then it says "Romita," and that's you, right, Romita?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: "Around 1957 was when Stan and I were at our lowest ebb in our relationship. In the last year, he cut my rate every time I turned in a story. He was not even talking to me then. He was embarrassed, because he had given me raises for two years every time I went in, and then he took it all away. I went from $44 a page to $24 a page in a year."

Then Roy Thomas says: "As Gil was fond of saying, "comics giveth and comics taketh away."

And then Romita, that's you, says: "Virginia kept saying, "well, how long are you going to take the cuts until you go somewhere else?" And I told her, "I'll hang on, I'll hang on." Then, when it came time that he ran out of money and had to shut down, or cut down to the bone, I had done two or three days' work, ruling up the pages, lettering the balloons, and blocking in the figures on a story -- and here comes a call from his assistant -- she had beautiful bangs, beautiful brown hair, I forget her name, but she was adorable -- and she says, "John, I have to tell you that Stan says to stop work on the Western book because we're going to cut down on a lot of titles." I said to her, "well, I spent three days on it. I'd like to get $100 for the work, to tide me over." She said, "okay, I'll mention it to Stan." I never heard another word about the money, and I told Virginia, "if Stan Lee ever calls, tell him to go to hell." And that was the last work I did for him until 1965."
Do you see that?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Is that consistent with your recollection?
JOHN ROMITA: That's exactly my recollection. I would never forget that.
Q: Is there anything in that statement that you don't agree with today?
JOHN ROMITA: No.
Q: Let's turn a little later in that book to page 160.
JOHN ROMITA: 160 or -
Q: 160.
JOHN ROMITA: We are in the 300s already.
Q: I'm sorry. 522.
JOHN ROMITA: Yeah, I have it, 522.
Q: Okay. Down towards the bottom of the left column on page 160 or Romita 522 is the Bates stamp on this, it says "John Romita".  Do you know who JA is?
JOHN ROMITA: Jim Amash.
Q: Okay. So this is a different
(break in testimony)
JOHN ROMITA: …bring the pages to him for him to ink and he would pay me.
Q: Do you recall whether or not he would pay you when he got paid or pay you when you turned in your penciling?
JOHN ROMITA: I can't remember exactly. It might have varied depending probably on how much his bank balance was. It seems to me I got paid as soon as I gave him the pages.
Q: Just, again, as a word of caution or advice, I know you are trying to answer my questions to the best of your ability, but if you really don't know one way or another, I don't want you to speculate.
JOHN ROMITA: Okay.
Q: So do you know one way or another whether you were paid upon turning the penciling in or when Mr. Zakarin was paid?
JOHN ROMITA: I can't remember.
Q: And Stan Lee was at Timely at this time when you were doing work for Mr. Zakarin?
JOHN ROMITA: According to Mr. Zakarin, that's who he was working for.
Q: But you didn't meet Stan?
JOHN ROMITA: I didn't meet Stan until 1951.
Q: And at that time you began working for Atlas Comics?
JOHN ROMITA: Timely was the company. It was Atlas, but Timely was the company that my checks were made out by. I think they were subsidiaries. I don't know.
Q: So you were doing work by Atlas but you got checks from Timely?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
JOHN ROMITA: All I knew is I was -- they were Timely Comics when I went up there. That's the only memory I have of it. In retrospect I remember that the books used to have Atlas. I think Atlas was the distributor. Atlas Comics were distributing -- distributing Timely Comics and other comics, I think.
Q: And you were --
JOHN ROMITA: Just a guess.
Q: And you were working freelance at this time?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: You were not a salaried employee?
JOHN ROMITA: No, sir.
Q: At the time you were ghost pencilling for Mr. Zakarin, did you do work for any other -- anyone else?
JOHN ROMITA: I believe I did. The time relationship is vague and almost gone, but I know I did a story for Famous Funnies, a romance story, a twelve-page story, and I also did some work for Avon Comics, which was another publisher. Lester Zakarin had all of these publishers in his book and he kept leading me to work.
Q: What about Trojan Comics?
JOHN ROMITA: There was a Trojan Comics, believe it or not. Yes, I did a couple of covers for Trojan Comics. A western and a crime, a crime cover. A little man with a cowboy hat. That's all I remember.
Q: And this was prior to 1951?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Now, after you started working as a freelancer with Atlas in 1951, did you do freelance work for other comic book companies?
JOHN ROMITA: I did, yes.
Q: Do you remember some of the names of those companies?
JOHN ROMITA: The only company, I believe, was DC Comics. I might have done some Avon past in 1951 or 1952. I'm not sure. I don't believe so, because I was in the army and I didn't have a lot of time. I think I was just doing work for Stan Lee, but I did later on, after I got out of the army I did some work for DC, romance comics, while I was working with Stan.
Q: And when you were working with Atlas you had no written agreement; correct?
JOHN ROMITA: Correct.
Q: And did you select and pay for your own materials?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes, I did.
Q: And you worked out of your home?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Purchased your own paper and pencils?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Where did you buy them?
JOHN ROMITA: There was two stores near – Sam Flax and Art Brown. When I worked at DC, I used to go to Art Brown. When I worked at –for Stan I did -- I went to Sam Flax, I believe.
Q: At what time did -- you mentioned, I believe -- I'm not attempting to quote you, but believe you mentioned that work started to slow down in the late 1950s. Is that correct?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Did the work start to slow down by mid 1957?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
Q: You can answer.
JOHN ROMITA: I believe it was in the period of about 18 months, like late '56 to mid '58, something like that, because my reference to the fact that every time I went in, I got a cut, every like once a month or once every two months I would get a cut in rate, so it needed a few months to accumulate to lose me $20 plus in my page rate.
Q: We looked up in the Grand Comic Database -- are you familiar with that database on the Internet?
JOHN ROMITA: No.
Q: It's a database that lists inaccuracies. Now, if you would turn to Bates number 458. When I say "Bates numbers," those are the little printed pages on the bottom. It says ROM 458.
JOHN ROMITA: I have it.
Q: On the top right-hand -- towards the top right-hand corner Mr. Amash asks you the following question: "Why were you saving pencil stubs?" And you answer: "When you're a freelancer for 15 years, and you have to buy your own materials, you don't waste anything. I've still got some brushes from like 40 years ago. And she would always reveal that kind of stuff. She'd say, "this guy is crazy"."
JOHN ROMITA: Marie Severin.
Q: Do you see that?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Why don't you waste anything when you are a freelancer?
JOHN ROMITA: Well, because if you are making a small amount of money, every penny counts when you are expending it. She used to make fun of me all the time, make cartoons of me hoarding pencils and papers. She was a very funny woman.
Q: In 1958 was Atlas experiencing financial difficulties?
JOHN ROMITA: Absolutely.
Q: What was the reason for that; do you know?
JOHN ROMITA: Two reasons. Well, this may be my own -- first of all, the comic industry was under fire because of an old crank who claimed that comic books led to juvenile delinquency and the comic companies pulled their horns in and tried to defend themselves and stammered their way through the congressional hearings and it looked very bleak for comics. They bailed themselves out by instituting a Comics Code Authority which they all put money up to create an impartial code authority which would pass judgement on comics and make them family friendly and child friendly.

The other problem was that all the companies were over-extended. They had too many titles and each one of their titles could only sell a certain amount because they were in competition with themselves. They would put out fifty to sixty titles, mostly garbage, because you can't get fifty or sixty good books out, there aren't good enough - enough good artists. I fought for thirty years to have Marvel cut down on the amount of books they put out, because it was always suicide to over-produce. So between the over-production and glutting the market with garbage and the Senate hearings, comics was about to go under. That's why in '58 Marvel -- Marvel Comics - Timely Comics shut down to two books from fifty titles.
Q: From fifty to two?
JOHN ROMITA: At least -- two may have been an exaggeration, but they cut down to the bone. There was only like two or three artists working. Dick Ayers and -- I have forgotten the other guy. Don Heck. These were the only guys that Stan kept on. I was not one of them.
Q: Would you say they cut down by --
JOHN ROMITA: By just letting people go.
Q: By about 90 percent or more possibly?
JOHN ROMITA: I don't know how many artists he had. Whatever it was, it was dozens down to two, or a dozen artists down to two, whatever it was, yes.
Q: So at that point you stopped selling your work to Marvel and started doing business with DC?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
Q: You can answer.
JOHN ROMITA: I went to DC then, yes. Because I had done romance with them I had an opening there and I called them up and they had work for me doing romance comics.
Q: I’d like you to turn to Bates number 374, turn back to it, please.
JOHN ROMITA: Got it.
Q: I believe this is an interview you were questioned on previously entitled 50 Years On the "A" List.
JOHN ROMITA: Correct.
Q: Do you recall giving this interview with Roy Thomas?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Is there anything that you believe is inaccurate in this interview?
(break in testimony)
Q: …Mr. Amash that there was something inaccurate about his quotes of your statements in this interview?
JOHN ROMITA: Not that I remember.
Q: Turn to page, please, 428. In the first column of the interview it says, if you look at the second full paragraph on the left side: "Timely publisher Martin Goodman used to close shop at the drop of a hat. If expenses got too high, he'd say "the hell with it," and close shop. Nobody had any protection because there were no pensions, no severance pay or insurance plans, or saving plans. Everyone who worked in comics were flying by the seat of their pants."
JOHN ROMITA: True.
Q: Is that a true statement?
JOHN ROMITA: That was my impression.
Q: That's your understanding?
JOHN ROMITA: That was my impression of the way the industry -- the way he ran his company. I wasn't very bright.
Q: Does what you said about Marvel also apply to your experience at DC after you left Marvel in 1958?
MS. SINGER: Objection.
JOHN ROMITA: You are asking did I think DC was run better than Marvel?
Q: No, I am just saying does your comment about everyone who worked in comics were flying by the seat of their pants, did that apply to your work at Marvel after you left Marvel in -
JOHN ROMITA: I had no --
Q: Excuse me. Did that apply to your work at DC after you left Marvel?
JOHN ROMITA: The same things applied. I had no insurance, no security.
Q: You can turn to page -- just one moment. Sorry. Turn to page Bates number 407.
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: On the left side towards the top of the page in the interview Roy Thomas asks you: "In other words, don't eat for six months and maybe we'll give you work again? They did that with young mystery writers in the late '60s which is how we got Mary Wolfman, Gerry Conway, Len Wein" –
JOHN ROMITA: Len Wein.
Q: Len Wein, excuse me -- "and several other guys over at Marvel." Do you see that?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: And you respond: "DC didn't even say that. When (editor) Jack Miller told me -- and of course he was on the frying pan already -- I remember asking him, "could you introduce me to some of the other editors?"
And he said, "nah, I don't think so – they aren't looking for anybody." He told me, "listen, you're a freelancer. You're not on contract. You're free to go and get work anywhere."
MS. SINGER: I think you missed a line there.
JOHN ROMITA: Yeah, the type on this book is terribly small. That's probably why most people don't read every line.
Q: Oh, excuse me. "And he said, "nah, I don't think so -- they are looking for anybody."
JOHN ROMITA: "They aren't looking."
Q: "They aren't looking for anybody." He never even got off his ass to introduce me to anybody. He told me, "listen, you're a freelancer. You're not on contract"."
JOHN ROMITA: Yes.
Q: Does this comport with your understanding of how things were back at those days?
JOHN ROMITA: This was a shining example to confirm my opinions. Yes. And he was a prize package. He didn't last long.
Q: But as a freelancer you were free to work for whoever you wanted to?
JOHN ROMITA: Sure, as long as they were not putting you under kind of -- occasionally an editor would tell you, "if you work exclusively for me, I will give you first crack at the scripts," which was a verbal promise that they couldn't always keep, but some people fell for it. I think Stan Lee said that to me when I went and did romance stories for DC. He put me in that spot.
Q: So Atlas was sometimes referred to as Timely and vice versa?
JOHN ROMITA: Timely was one of the -- one of the out."
Q: Is that correct that you worked at home from 1949 to 1965?
JOHN ROMITA: Correct.
Q: And you did this work at home as a freelancer?
JOHN ROMITA: Correct.
Q: And then in 1965 you were employed by Marvel?
JOHN ROMITA: Right.
Q: To make sure I understand your previous testimony, for the first few months at Marvel you continued to work as a freelancer?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes. I worked at home.
Q: And then that changed and you began working at Marvel as a salaried employee?
JOHN ROMITA: Yes. In 1966, January of 1966.
Q: How many months did you work as a freelancer?
JOHN ROMITA: I believe it was from some part of July, five months.
Q: So you started there in July 1965?
JOHN ROMITA: I believe, yes, I think. DC let me go sometime in June or July.
Q: But did you usually work from a script during the period you worked in the '50s?
JOHN ROMITA: I always worked from a script at that time.
Q: And that's when -- that's -- the period you spoke about was more of a kind of I think you used the term sausage factory?
JOHN ROMITA: Yeah, they were turning them out. The scripts were repetitious and similar and the artwork was somewhat the same. Most of us were just trying to make a dollar.
Q: And do you recall how much in the '50s they would pay you for your work?
JOHN ROMITA: It ranged from the mid 20s to the mid 40s. There were weeks -- there were years where we had terrible times and there were good years and there were bad years. Two good years, one bad year. Two bad years, one good year. In comics -- in those fifteen years there was nothing you could count on. I could make $6,000 one year, I could make $8,000 the next year and I could make $5,000 the third year, because the ebb and flow was always questionable. Martin Goodman would decide he wasn't going to publish as many books. Then he would decide to publish 25 more books. So it was very erratic, very hard -- very difficult to plan a life when you didn't know where the money was coming from. It was a dumb way to live.
Q: When you worked in this freelance fashion, they always bought your work by the page?
JOHN ROMITA: By the page.
Q: You referred to your working at some point at Marvel as a correction artist. I believe it was after you started working as a full-time employee.

Can you try and pin down for me the date or approximate date when you started working as a correction artist on staff at Marvel?
JOHN ROMITA: I don't believe there was any actual date. It sort of -- it sort of creeped into the process. It preceded my eight years at DC, by the way. By the way, I also did corrections at DC sometimes. Whenever I was in there, they
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
MS. SINGER: I have just a couple, I'm sorry, and then we will get you out of here.
MR. TOBEROFF: In that case I might have more questions.
MS. SINGER: A couple of things. When you were talking with Mr. Toberoff, you mentioned that the Fantastic Four was a trademark book of Jack's.

When you used the word "trademark," were you using that in a legal sense?
JOHN ROMITA: No. It was -- he was associated with it as a successful title. That's what I meant. He had started it with Stan and they were riding the crest of a wave of success.
Q: Do you know whether Jack owned any of the characters or any of the works for Fantastic Four?
JOHN ROMITA: I don't believe so.
Q: You were talking about the legends on the back of the check.

When you were at Marvel in the 1950s before you left in '57 or '58, when you would get checks from Marvel or Timely or whoever it was for your page rate, do you recall whether there was a legend on the back of the check?
JOHN ROMITA: I believe there was. I think they wouldn't have -- well, I'm assuming there was. I think I vaguely remember there was. Sometimes a shorter paragraph, sometimes a longer paragraph.
MS. SINGER: Okay. I have no further questions.