DuBay v King: Deposition of Stephen King, April 12, 2018

Deposition of Stephen King, April 12, 2018

Those who are regular readers of this blog (that is, when I’m putting material up for people to read) will know only too well that I love the legal stuff. I love court hearings, depositions, affidavits – hell, if it’s legal, I’ll read it, study it and then feel somewhat informed enough to comment from a place of non-ignorance.

That’s my excuse, and I’m sticking to it.

A few months back I posted the deposition of Jim Warren. He was desposed in the still running case brought by Ben DuBay, the nephew of Bill DuBay claiming horror author Stephen King lifted concepts and the general storyline of his Dark Tower series from DuBay’s own series, The Rook, which Bill DuBay created with Budd Lewis, in particular, DuBay’s character, Restin Dane, directly influenced King when he created his own character Roland Deschain.

The Rook first appeared in March 1977. From that date the character appeared in Warren Magazines such as Vampirella, Eerie and Warren Presents, before being handed its own title. There are enough similarities between The Rook and Dark Tower for Ben DuBay to bring the suit, and as part of the process a few people have been deposed, including Ralph Macchio (the former Marvel editor, not the skinny actor), Jim Warren, film director Bob Gale, Ben DuBay and Stephen King himself.

Normally the public wouldn’t be given the chance to see such despositions but this one landed on my desk just before Christmas, so consider it a belated Christmas present.  I present you with a Stephen King document that very few people have seen before, but one that should interest many, as King details his working process, his battle with drug and alcohol addiction and his love of old horror magazines, including those published by Warren.

Was The Dark Tower lifted from The Rook? Read this and you decide. Then I’ll post a bit more that, no matter which side you come down on, will make you wonder even further.

STEPHEN KING, after having been first duly sworn, testified as follows, 
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR COOK: Good morning, Mr. King. My name is Rob Cook. As you heard, I represent Mr. DuBay in this case. To start with, have you had your deposition taken before?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. I'm just going to remind you of the rules, which you may recall. It's important that you answer out loud; yes, no, I don't know, whatever your answer is, as opposed to uh-huh, huh-uh or a shaking of the head because, even though we're videotaping this, the official transcript is the written document. It's important that you let me finish my question before you answer. Likewise, I will try and let you finish your answer before I ask the next question. If you found that I have cut you off in some way, just let me know, and you can certainly finish your answer.
If you don't know the answer to a question, I don't want you to guess or speculate. If you have a reasonable estimate that could provide an answer, as you are under oath, it's important that you provide that answer. But if you don't know the answer, then "I don't know" is perfectly acceptable.
If you need a break for any reason, use the restroom, telephone, just let me know, "I want to take a break." All I ask is that you answer the question that's on the table and then we can take the break. I have a couple of kind of odd questions that are typical and meant with no offense. I don't need to
know your personal medical history, but are you currently on any medications today at this time that would inhibit your ability to provide truthful testimony in this case?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What is your current address?
A: (redacted).
Q: And how long have you lived there?
A: 16 years.
Q: And does anyone reside there with you?
A: My wife.
Q: And what's your wife's name?
A: Tabitha King.
Q: And do you have any children?
A: Yes.
Q: What are your children's names and ages?
A: Naomi King, 47; Joseph King, 45; Owen King, 40.
Q: And, if my research is proven correct, you have not served in the military and you have no felony convictions; is that correct?
A: That's correct.
Q: Where did you attend college?
A: The University of Maine in Orono, Maine.
Q: And what year did you graduate?
A: 1970.
Q: And what was your degree in?
A: I had a Bachelor of Sciences with a degree in education.
Q: Any other college after University of Maine?
A: No.
Q: What did you do -- did you work while you were in college?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do for work while you were in college?
A: I worked in the commons as a dish line employee, and I worked in the Fogler Library as a library aide.
Q: And let me take a step back. What year did you start at University of Maine? Would it have been in 1960 --
A: 1966.
Q: 1966? And what did you do once you graduated college in 1970 for work?
A: I pumped gas in Brewer, Maine; worked at the New Franklin Laundry in Bangor, Maine; and the following two years I taught in the English department at Hampden Academy.
Q: What year would it have been that you started teaching at the -- did you say Hampden Academy?
A: H-a-m-p-d-e-n, Hampden Academy.
Q: Hampden, okay. What year would you have started teaching at Hampden Academy?
A: 1971.
Q: And you taught there for two years?
A: Yes.
Q: And what did you do after your employment with Hampden Academy?
A: Since then, I've been employed as a freelance writer.
Q: Okay. When you did you first start writing materials intended for someone else to read?
A: When I was eight.
Q: Okay. And what was the first -- if you can remember, what was the first writing that you received compensation for?
A: It was a story called The Glass Floor published in Startling Mystery Stories. And I'm not entirely clear on the date, but I think that would have
been around 1968 or 1969.
Q: And The Glass Floor, was that a short story or what type of work was that?
A: That was a short story.
Q: Generally, what was it about?
A: It was about a man investigating a room with a glass floor that was basically a mirror, it was a library, and when you went in there, you saw your reflection going down, like in a pool of water. And the idea was that people disappeared in that room because they sank into the floor.
Q: What did your parents do for work, if they did work, while you were in college? What --just generally, what line of work were they in, if any?
A: My mother was a housekeeper at a place called Pineland, which was a home for mentally challenged children. She was the head housekeeper there. My father left the family when I was two. So I have no idea. He did not work as a breadwinner in the family, let's put it that way.
Q: Okay. That's what I was leading to. Tell me about your life between 1975 and 1981. And, basically, without asking a specific question, where were you living in that time period? with whom? You know, were you married? kids? Tell me about your life in the period --
MR COX: Can you be a little more specific?
MR COOK: Sure.
MR COX: It seems overbroad.
MR COOK: Intentionally overbroad. So we can do it differently.
BY MR COOK: Where were you living in 1975?
A: For part of that year, we were in Colorado, and then we relocated back to Maine, to the town of Bridgton.
Q: And who is "we"?
A: My wife; my daughter, Naomi; and my son, Joe.
Q: What year were you married?
A: 1971.
Q: Okay. So, in 1975, you were living in Colorado. And then, I'm sorry, you said you moved back to Maine?
A: Yes.
Q: Did that coincide with your forthcoming employment at Hampden Academy?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So you didn't move back because of the job, you moved back and then you got -- you landed the job?
A: No.
Q: No.
MR COX: His testimony was that he worked at Hampden Academy for two years starting in 1971.
MR COOK: Okay. So when you came back in 1975 -- I'm sorry. Thank you. When you came back in 1975, what did you do for work at that point? You were just writing?
A: Yes.
Q: And when you moved back in 1975, do you remember what part of Maine you lived to (sic)? You probably don't remember your address, or maybe you do.
A: We lived on Kansas Road in the town of Bridgton, Maine.
Q: Approximately how long did you live on Kansas Road; how many years, if you can estimate?
A: My recollection is that we lived there for two years.
Q: Okay. So, give or take, we'll say 1977.
Where did you move to after the Kansas Road address?
A: We moved to a town called Lovell, Maine.
Q: And how long did you live in Lovell?
A: We still do.
Q: Still do, okay.
Have you had an opportunity to read the complaint in this lawsuit? And that's a bad question.
A: Yes, I had an opportunity to read it.
Q: I was going to say that was a bad question. Have you read the complaint in this lawsuit?
A: I've been informed of the gist of it.
Q: Okay. And, just for clarification, any question that I ask, if it is a specific conversation that you had with your lawyer, something that would be protected by the attorney-client privilege, I'm not seeking that conversation?
MR COX: Correct. And again, for the record, the information that we have provided to you regarding the contents of the complaint are privileged, just so that you know. He's specifically asking did you read the complaint personally and that -- so that's the question that's on the table, not whether or not you know of the contents of the complaint.
BY MR COOK: What is your understanding of why Mr. Dubay is suing you?
MR COX: You'd have to talk about other than what your lawyer has told you.
MR COOK: Counselor.
MR COX: No. I'm protecting the privilege.
MR COOK: I understand that. But, I mean, I'm asking his understanding.
THE WITNESS: I believe Mr. Dubay believes that I appropriated material that his uncle, whose name escapes my mind, William Dubay --
MR COOK: That's correct.
THE WITNESS: -- is that right? That William Dubay had published a comic book called The Rook, and that I took material from The Rook and incorporated it in my series of books called The Dark Tower.
MR COOK: Well --
THE WITNESS: But, basically, I'm getting accused of plagiarism.
BY MR COOK: And the character The Rook is also known as Restin Dane. Are you aware of that?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. I may use those terms interchangeably. Did Restin Dane influence the development of your character Roland Deschain in The Dark Tower?
A: No.
Q: In the time -- in the time period of 1975 to 1981, were you, at any time during that period, taking drugs of any sort, nonprescription drugs?
A: Yes.
Q: And what type of drugs were you taking during that time period?
MR COX: Objection. Overbroad --
MR COX: -- as to time.
MR COOK: I was saying 1975 to 1981.
MR COX: So at any point in that time is the question, not -- okay. Okay. With that clarification.
BY MR. COOK: Besides cocaine, any other? Marijuana?
A: No.
Q: Any hallucinogens?
A: Sorry? Hallucinogens?
Q: Yes.
A: No.
Q: Were you on any prescription medications during that time period?
A: Yes.
Q: What prescription medications?
A: I was on a hypertension medicine called Aldomet.
Q: Any other medications?
A: Not to my recollection.
Q: Okay. I'm going to ask you about a book, and this is one of the exhibits, Stephen King, On Writing. You wrote this book; correct?
A: Yes.
Q: And on page 97 of this book -- I'm just going to read it into the record. It says: "Tabby began by dumping a trash bag full of stuff from my office out on the rug: beer cans, cigarette butts, cocaine in gram bottles, and cocaine in plastic Baggies, coke spoons caked with snot and blood, Valium, Xanax, bottles of Robitussin cough syrup and NyQuil cold medicine, even bottles of mouthwash."
So what time period are you referring to in this passage of On Writing?
A: 1987.
Q: So at what time period, approximately, did you start taking Valium?
A: 1986, approximately.
Q: And what about Xanax?
A: 1986, approximately.
Q: So, prior to that time frame, you had not taken Valium or Xanax?
A: No.
Q: In the time period of '75 to '81, were you drinking alcohol?
A: Yes.
Q: How often were you drinking in the time period of 1975 to '81?
A: Daily.
Q: And how much were you drinking?
A: It varied.
Q: Were you a beer drinker? Whiskey? Vodka?
A: I was a beer drinker.
Q: On average, if you can estimate, what would be an average day during that time period of daily beer consumption?
A: Well, my capacity increased as time went by. I would say on an average of a six pack a night, give or take.
Q: You wrote a book Cujo; correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Yes. And what time period did you write Cujo, what year or years?
A: 1981, approximately.
Q: And On Writing, on page 99: "At the end of my adventures, I was drinking a case of 16-ounce tallboys a night, and there's one novel, Cujo, that I barely remember writing at all. I don't say that with pride or shame, only with a vague sense of sorrow and loss. I like that book. I wish I could remember enjoying the good parts as I put them down on the page."
In regards to that reference, when did your drinking go from a six-pack a day to a case of tallboys a night?
A: Well, that period, it's hard to say. It was a progressive thing. I would guess that probably by 1985 or 1986 I was drinking close to a case a night. By 1987 for sure.
Q: Well, in the passage that I just read is referencing when you wrote Cujo. That would have been in 1981, approximately.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: So it's my understanding that you have stopped drinking alcohol; is that correct?
A: Are you talking about now?
Q: Now.
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And -- and how long have you been sober?
A: 30 years.
Q: Since about 1987-ish?
A: 1988.
Q: 1988? Did you consider yourself an alcoholic at some time in your life?
A: Yes.
Q: And you may not be able to estimate this, but what period of your life would you say you were an alcoholic; years?
A: From birth.
Q: From birth, okay. There's a lot of published materials, interviews, books that you've written and books written about you that are out there. Are you currently aware of any published interviews, whether in writing or, you know, video interviews, so to speak, that -- that you're aware of that are untrue?
A: Oh, that's an impossible question to answer.
Q: Well, it's not a great question. So let me see if I can rephrase it.
Are you aware of any published interviews where someone has alleged that you have said something that you dispute? In other words, that I did not say that.
A: Again, very difficult question to answer. Have there been interviews where I've been misquoted or where things have been attributed to me that I did not say or that were taken out of context, that's true. And I'll give you one example of that.
There's a line in an introduction to a book of short stories by a man named Robert Bloch where he says, "I actually have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk." And in years later, when I was interviewed, and people would say things like, "Where did you get that idea?" or "Why do you write the things that you write?" I would quote Robert Bloch and say, "Well, as Robert Bloch says, 'I have the heart of a small boy. I keep it in a jar on my desk.'"
And, since then, it really doesn't matter what I say or how many times I debunk that. It's become an accepted fact that that is my bon mot.
So, yes, I've been quoted wrongly, I've been quoted out of context, and I'm sure that, from time to time, people have said things about me that are not true. But if you were to ask me specifically, I couldn't say because, as you said, I've been interviewed probably a thousand times.
Q: And let me clarify. I'm not asking you about things that have been said about you that are not true. And the example you give in regards to Robert -- is it Boch?
A: Bloch.
Q: Bloch. Thank you, is more in line with what I'm talking about. Are there any interviews that you remember because they were egregious where someone is saying, Stephen King, you know, in this interview said this, but you didn't? And, I'm not asking whether or not they exist, okay, because I agree that's much too broad of a question. But more what I'm asking is: Are there any particular interviews that stick out in your mind that really, you know, grated you that you recall because you're like, I didn't say that? That's what I'm asking you.
MR COX: Objection. Vague. Overbroad.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer that question.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So there aren't -- you gave me one example of this credit of Robert Bloch regarding the small heart of a boy. Do you have any other examples of misstatements that you recall?
A: Now you're putting me on the spot here kind of.
Q: As I said when we went over the rules, "I don't know" or "I don't remember" is a perfectly acceptable answer to any question, as long as it's a
truthful answer.
A: Well, I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Have you ever been sued before?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know how many times you've been sued?
A: No.
Q: Tell me the times that you remember that you have been sued.
A: Sued.
Q: A lawsuit filed against you.
A: What sticks out in my mind is I think in the '80s or '90s, I was sued by a woman named Anne Hiltner from New Jersey, maybe from Princeton, for plagiarism.
Q: And what did Anne Hiltner claim you had plagiarized?
A: That I had plagiarized some of her books, her unpublished books; that I had either listened at her window or had flown over her house in planes that had equipment that could pick up either her words or her thoughts, one or the other.
Q: Okay. So, besides Anne Hiltner and the lawsuit in the '80s or '90s, do you remember any other lawsuits wherein you've been sued?
A: Sued.
Q: Like an actual lawsuit filed against you.
A: No.
Q: What about Duma Cay?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. Have you ever sued anyone before?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And who have you sued?
A: I can't remember the entity, but it had to do with a story of mine called The Lawnmower Man and a movie that was made about it. I can't even remember the actual things that were at issue, whether it was plagiarism or I -- I'll tell you what. I do remember. It was the based on credit in the movie based on a story or Stephen King's, The Lawnmower -- it was either a possessory credit or a based-on credit.
Q: And the movie was The Lawnmower Man or that's the book that you wrote?
A: It was a short story.
Q: Okay. What was the name of the short story?
A: The Lawnmower Man.
Q: Okay. And what was the name of the movie?
A: The Lawnmower Man.
Q: Okay. Approximately what year did that occur?
A: You'd have to look it up on the international movie database to be sure, but I'm not going to guess. I don't recall.
Q: Well, let's see if we can just narrow it down. Was it in the last ten years?
A: No. No. You're not asking to ask me if it was bigger than a bread box, are you?
Q: Where was that lawsuit filed, what venue, do you know?
A: New York.
Q: Did that case go to trial?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you testify in the trial?
A: I did.
Q: Besides Anne Hiltner and her claims of you flying over her house, have you been accused of copyright infringement before?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. I'd like to show you a video interview, and Richard, this is on the disc that we gave you for reference. This is the called The Picking Up Bones Interview. If you want to set it there, I'm not going to play it yet. I'm going to play it here in just a second. First of all, just from looking at the starting screen, do you remember this interview?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
MR COX: What exhibit number is the interview, Counsel?
MR COOK: Well, it's labeled Picking Up Bones. So the videos aren't numbered, they're just labeled, as Picking Up Bones Video.
MR COX: Can we call it Video Exhibit Number 1, just so we have a record?
MR COOK: We -- sure. Well, it would be, like, 1A because the disc is a composite.
MR COX: I understand. Yeah. Just so we have a record so that when we cite to it in our --
MR COOK: We can call it 1A.
MR COX: Thank you.
BY MR COOK: My question is: Do you recognize the covers that are the backdrop of the video?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what do you recognize those covers to depict?
A: The Marvel comic books of The Dark Tower.
Q: And did you approve the artwork that was used for those covers?
A: No.
Q: Who is pictured in the covers? You can start with the one on the left. I think there's three. I'm not looking at it, but I think there's three covers on there.
A: Well, the one in the middle is Roland Desjardin, The Gunslinger from The Dark Tower books, and the one on the left is probably him, and the one on the right could be either him or it could be Eddie Dean from that series of books.
Q: Okay. Now, in order for Marvel --
MR COX: Can we make that screen a little brighter? It's just kind of a dark screen, and it makes it more difficult for the witness.
THE WITNESS: Well, this guy's head is in the way of that one anyway.
MR COX: Well, there is -- thank you.
MR FREDEKING: You're welcome.
MR COX: Thank you. Yeah.
BY MR COOK: So in order for --
MR COX: Wait. Why don't we let the witness go back and have a look at it --
MR COOK: Sure.
MR COX: -- just so we --
THE WITNESS: Yeah, fine. Go ahead.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So after brightening the video, do -- any changes to who you think the people -- depicted are?
A: The one on the right looks more like Eddie Dean from my series of books.
Q: Okay. In order for Marvel to produce, and I believe these were, like, graphic novels, we'll call them; is that accurate?
A: Yes.
Q: In order for Marvel to publish these, did they obtain permission from you to use your characters?
A: Yes.
Q: Was there a written agreement?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you play any role in approving the final works before they were published?
A: I did with the first issue.
Q: What was the first issue, if you recall?
A: The Gunslinger Born. It's in the center of this image.
Q: And how did that process occur?
A: I think that's the one. It must be the first one. Go ahead.
Q: And how would that process of your approving the first edition of The Gunslinger Born, how would that process occur?
A: They sent me story boards. I approved the writer for the first issue. I believe it was Peter David, the adapter, I should say. And then they showed
me the pages, finished pages, with the panels and the balloons and all that, and I looked at all that and said, "Fine."
Q: And you did not go through that same process for the second or third cover, as depicted?
A: Well, let's make something clear here. I never approved the cover.
Q: Okay.
A: I approved the material, the adaptation. I did not approve the cover, and I didn't ask for approval of the cover. Contractually, I might have had it, but I never approved any of the covers. Now, what was your question? I'm sorry. I was just trying to clarify that.
Q: That's okay. I appreciate that. My question was: You went through this approval process, and you clarified what you approved, saying you didn't approve the covers, but you went through that process for the first one, The Gunslinger Born. Did you not go through that process for the subsequent Marvel graphic novels?
A: I did not.
Q: Okay. And did you have the contractual right to go through that process for the subsequent novels?
A: I did.
Q: And why did you opt not to go through that process for the subsequent graphic novels?
A: Well, I would say there were two reasons that I didn't go through the process with the subsequent issues. The first and the most important one was I trusted the people involved. The second reason was I was busy with other things.
Q: Does Eddie Dean appear in The Gunslinger Born?
A: I don't remember.
MR COOK: All right. And we can go ahead and play the video. Richard -- and if you want to bring it up close -- and I'm going to tell you up front that the audio is a little difficult to hear. So if you want to play it a couple times or – or rewind it -- it's very short.
(Video played.)
THE WITNESS: Wait a minute.
MR COOK: Can you get it any louder?
MR FREDEKING: (Shakes head from side to side.)
MR COX: I -- I can't hear it.
THE WITNESS: I got it.
MR COX: Well --
THE WITNESS: I got my answer anyway.
MR COOK: If you want to take it over and play it. I don't know of any way to make it louder.
MR COX: You probably can do that.
MR FREDEKING: I believe that's as loud as it goes.
MR COX: If you can help me, Robert, that would be great, just so I know. I'm not familiar with this.
MR FREDEKING: Had it with the subtitles. It's Richard.
MR COX: Richard. I'm sorry.
MR FREDEKING: No problem.
(Video played again and not reported by the court reporter.)
THE WITNESS: Stop it for a second. Pause it. Pause it. Pause it. Pause it.
Can you -- do you have a transcript? Can you read the question that he asks me?
MR COOK: Yes, sir, I'm going to tell you what the question is because I have a better speaker system at my office. But the question he asks you is: Dr. -- Dr. Doom -- Dr. Doom -- it either says it sounds like or it might be a copyright problem.
MR FREDEKING: Start it from the beginning?
THE WITNESS: Why would he talk about Dr. Doom? Okay. Go ahead.
(Video played and not reported by the court reporter).
THE WITNESS: Okay. What's your question?
MR COOK: Sure. And the only other thing I was going to suggest is if someone had a set of headphones, that might work to plug it in.
MR COX: Well, I think that the witness can speak to his answer, which was audible. I don't think the question was clearly audible. And I object to that. Also, because the witness moved his head during the interview, I think it's more -- the witness is now more able to testify regarding the picture that is on the right side of that image than he was earlier.
MR COOK: That's fine if he wants to look at it with the head moved and --
MR COX: The third -- the one on the right.
THE WITNESS: I guess -- okay. Look, the one on the right here, these are alternate covers for the same issue. Okay? That's what's going on here. And that is Roland with his Hawk, Martin, when he does the test of the manhood test against Cort. So that's why I thought it was Eddie. This is the gunslinger as a teenager.
MR COX: Right.
BY MR COOK: And when you say "that," just for the record, you're pointing to the cover that's on the right side of the screen?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
MR COX: I realize you're doing the best you can, but I have to protect the record anyway.
MR FREDEKING: That's understandable.
MR COOK: Sure.
BY MR COOK: So -- and we can leave it up there just in case he wants to play it again, or not – if you don't mind. Thank you.
So, basically, in this video, the interviewer asked about Dr. Doom who is in the Wolves of the Calla; correct?
A: No.
Q: He's not? Is Dr. Doom anywhere in The Dark Tower?
A: No.
Q: The Wolves of the Calla, you're saying Dr. Doom is not in that book?
A: That's what I'm saying.
Q: Okay. Well, regardless, your response, which I think everyone heard, but -- is that you have a junk-pile mind and your -- I'm paraphrasing his response. We'll let his actual response stand for the record.
But you have a junk-pile mind, you're likely to pick out any one thing, if it serves your purpose, you're going to use it.
MR COX: Objection. Not a -- that's not a quote, but --
MR COOK: Well, I said I'm paraphrasing it, that --
MR COX: I understand. I understand. What is your question?
BY MR COOK: You go on to say, Unlike those apes in the beginning of 2001, digging around, picking up bones until I find one that works. So my question is: Considering your exposure to Warren comics where The Rook was published and highly publicized in Eerie, Creepy, and Vampirella, you certainly came across The Rook during the time period of 1977 to 1982; agreed?
MR COX: Objection. Compound. Argumentative. Assumes facts in dispute. No proper foundation. Subject to those objections, please go ahead and answer.
THE WITNESS: Should I answer?
MR COX: Yes, please do answer.
THE WITNESS: I have no recollection of ever seeing The Rook.
BY MR COOK: Well, do you have a recollection of reading the Warren publications Eerie, Creepy, and Vampirella?
A: Yes.
Q: And do you have a recollection of reading those comics -- we'll call them comics -- in the time period of 1975 to 1982?
A: No.
Q: And you say you have no recollection. Are you saying that you didn't or just that you don't remember if you did or you did not?
MR COX: Objection. Vague and ambiguous as to what it is he's remembering. Go ahead and answer to the best of your ability.
THE WITNESS: To the best of my recollection, I did not read any of those magazines during that period.
BY MR COOK: So from -- we're focusing on the time period 1975 to 1982. You're saying, to the best of your recollection, you did not read Eerie, Creepy or Vampirella during that time period?
A: That's correct.
Q: And, if I understood your earlier answer, you're saying that you never came across The Rook or Restin Dane?
A: No, I never did.
Q: What time periods did you read or review Eerie, Creepy or Vampirella?
A: I had issue number one of Creepy. I seized it when I saw it. Do you want the short answer or the long answer?
Q: The long answer.
A: As a young kid, I read E. C. comic books. They were stories about horror, which appealed to me. I loved those magazines. And they were mostly gone by the time that I was eight or nine or ten, but you could still pick them up in junk stores and that sort of thing. I just loved it.
The Crypt Keeper, the Old Witch, all those people, and they were really grim and grizzly stories. And the Comics Code came along, and comic books, like Superman and Batman had this little sticker and they were super hero things and there wasn't a whole lot of interest to me in those comic books.
And when Creepy came along, Creepy got around the Comics Code because they were a magazine. They were a full-size magazine. They were bigger than comic books, and they were black and white. So they weren't subject to the Comics Code. And they were like those old magazines again.
So I bought Creepy, probably the first 12 or 14 issues. The stories were great. The editor was great. He was a guy named Archie Goodwin, who could really tell a good story. The covers were fantastic. There were covers by people like Frank Frazetta. Those paintings now go for thousands and thousands of dollars. But they were great. And then Cousin Eerie came along. Eerie was the companion to Creepy. And the same thing. The stories were pretty darn good, the art was terrific, and they were horror stories, and that was my sweet spot. That's what I really liked. So I read those magazines. Vampirella came along, and at that point I was probably 14, 15 years old. I don't recall when the publication of Vampirella started, but any red-blooded adolescent male was crazy about the cover anyway because she was wearing this kick-ass hot outfit, you know, and boots and everything. She was a pin-up. But she was also a super hero. She wasn't really a vampire. They weren't vampire stories, and I lost interest.
Q: So you lost interest in the Creepy, Eerie, and Vampirella. And my question is: What time frame did you stop? And you may not be able to give me a date, I understand, but --
A: It was done with all of those by 1970 or '71, I would say. They had lost their charm. Okay.
Q: Okay. And did you ever go back to them?
A: No.
BY MR COOK: Okay. At some point in your life have you submitted articles or stories for publication to Warren comics?
A: No.
Q: And, just to refresh your recollection, I thought that you had submitted some articles to a Mr. Ackerman with Warren comics?
A: No.
MR COOK: Okay. I'm going to show you a video to see if it refreshes your recollection. And we'll call this 1B for reference. It's on the composite exhibit, which is attached hereto -- attached to this deposition, and its titled First Stories to Warren.
MR DUBAY: How long --
MR FREDEKING: That one works.
MR COOK: Yeah, that other video, the sound was pretty weak.
MR COX: Great. Thank you.
MR FREDEKING: You're welcome. Are you ready, Rob?
MR COOK: Yeah, just hit the space bar.
(Video played and not reported by the court reporter.)
BY MR COOK: Okay. Got it. Do you remember that interview now that you've -- we've --
A: Yes.
Q: -- played it for you?  Okay. So you did submit articles to Mr. Ackerman, or stories?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And wasn't Mr. Ackerman with Warren?
A: He was, but Spacemen wasn't a comic magazine it was a film magazine.
Q: Okay. So is that the distinction?
A: Yeah.
MR COX: Your question related to Warren comics.
BY MR COOK: Okay. What is the difference between a comic magazine and a film magazine?
A: At the time that I submitted my story to Spacemen Magazine, Creepy and Eerie didn't exist. They were comic magazines. They had stories that were drawn by artists, they were fiction, and they had balloons and that sort of thing. And Spacemen was a magazine about movies, like Earth Versus the Flying Saucers and Metropolis and that sort of thing. It was a science
fiction magazine, essentially, about film.
MR COOK: Okay. I'm going to hand you a copy of what is on the disc marked as Exhibit 65. And I brought one extra copy. And we can attach this separately, even though it's on the disc.
MR COOK: And I'll give you as much time as you would like to read the entire article.
THE WITNESS: Is there a specific --
BY MR COOK: Yeah, there is. I'm looking at the middle column at the bottom --
A: Right.
Q: -- where it says, and I can read the question in. I'll try and read slowly.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: "Question: No, but it reminds me of the EC story Drawn and Quarterland (sic) about the voodoo artist who dies in a subway accident at the moment a bottle of turpentine is spilled over his self-portrait
(Tales from the Crypt number 26). Did you ever do any comic book stories?"
And your answer, according to this, is: "No. When I was really on my uppers, before Carrie sold, I submitted several ideas to Creepy when, I think, Marv Wolfman was editor. I stopped reading it for a while. They started to do a lot of reprints, and I got rather pissed." I just -- or "Just dropped it."
A: Uh-huh.
Q: So the reason I'm bringing that to your attention is I had asked you about interviews that you had given where maybe you had been misquoted. And, obviously, you had hundreds, maybe thousands of interviews.
So I'm showing you this interview because a moment ago I had asked you if you had ever submitted any stories to Warren comics, and you said no.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And there's this interview where, allegedly, you're claiming that in this -- according to this interview, that you did submit stories to Creepy.
MR COX: Objection. Misrepresents the document. It says ideas.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So my question is: After reviewing this, did you submit stories to Creepy?
A: No. To the best of my recollection, I never got a reply at all.
Q: You mean from Creepy?
A: Yeah.
Q: Well, as your attorney has pointed out, in this interview, it states that you submitted ideas. Did you submit ideas to Creepy?
A: I may have done. I don't recall.
Q: Okay. And your attorney is making a distinction between ideas and stories. And you made that same distinction too. What is the difference between an idea and a story that would be submitted?
A: Well, an idea would be a brief summary of what the story would be, and the story would be the story written out.
Q: Okay. So I'm a little confused. So, after reviewing this interview, is it your testimony that you did or did not submit ideas to Creepy?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. So earlier when you said no, I guess are you changing what your response is?
A: No. You're specifically asking me earlier did I submit stories to Creepy or Eerie, I think. Was that the --
Q: Yeah, that's what I asked.
A: It was either asked or the implication, and the answer is: No.
Q: So to reiterate, you never submitted a story to Creepy, Eerie or Vampirella?
A: That's correct.
Q: And you never submitted a story to Warren comics?
A: That's correct.
Q: But if I understand correctly, you made a distinction in that you submitted stories to a movie magazine, I think?
A: Spacemen.
Q: Spaceman. And -- so you did --
A: Men. Spacemen.
Q: Spacemen?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You did submit stories to Spacemen or you submitted ideas to Spacemen?
A: I submitted a story.
Q: Just one?
A: That's my recollection. And I think my recollection on that one is correct.
Q: And do you remember what story you submitted?
A: No. I remember that Forry showed it to me when he was in what he referred to as the Ackermansion, and I was flattened that he had it, that he had saved that piece, because I don't remember ever getting a response back. I might have gotten a form rejection, I don't recall if I did or not. But Forry saved everything. It was probably a page long.
In fact, it had to be a page long because that was the thing in Spacemen. They published one story per issue, and it was always like a one-page piece of fiction.
Q: Piece of fiction?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Did they accept nonfiction, do you know? Well, you wouldn't know that. Never -- don't worry about that. So in this --
A: The answer is no, by the way. Forry published everything. I mean, he wrote everything.
Q: Okay. So in this Starship interview in the spring of 1981, you're quoted as saying, "I think Marv Wolfman was editor."
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: Do you know if Marv Wolfman was editor of Creepy at any point in time?
A: No. My recollection is that Archie Goodwin was the editor of Creepy.
Q: And do you know what time period you're referring to?
A: No.
BY MR COOK: Okay. I'm going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 78 and is on the disc marked as so. And, for reference, this is Eerie number 45 dated February 1973. And to bring your attention to what I'm focusing on here, on the left-hand side it -- it lists --

A: Yeah, the masked head. Sorry.
Q: -- editor and publisher, James Warren; managing editor, W. B. Dubay; script editor, Marvin Wolfman. Now, that you've seen this, do you ever recall seeing this particular Eerie 45 prior to this litigation? Because you may have seen it in this litigation.
A: No.
Q: And Marvin Wolfman is listed as a script editor in Exhibit 78 --
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: -- correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Yeah. And the only time that he is listed as an editor in Eerie is in this issue?
MR COX: Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
BY MR COOK: Okay. If the only time he's listed as an editor is in Eerie 45 and in exhibit -- in the -- what's the prior exhibit number, the Spacemen?
MR COX: 65? Or Starship?
MR COOK: Starship, I think, yes.
BY MR COOK: In there, if you indicate that you submitted them to Marv Wolfman, don't you think that you probably would have gotten that from reviewing this Eerie number 45?
MR COX: Objection. No proper foundation. Assumes facts not in evidence. Argumentative. But you can go ahead and answer to the best of your ability.
THE WITNESS: Well, I gave the interview to Starship magazine in 1981, and this is 1973. And you notice that I say in there that I think that
Marv Wolfman was the editor. So, even then, which was, what, eight years after, I wasn't sure. And this is a lot of years after then. So, no, there's
no way to answer that question.
BY MR COOK: Did you ever meet Marv Wolfman?
A: No, I never met him.
Q: And I didn't --
A: That I recall. I should say that I recall.
Q: Okay.
THE WITNESS: Can I say something here, Vince?
MR COX: Sure, say something.
THE WITNESS: In the '60s and '70s, there were a lot of people who were, you know, like, big fantasy geeks, I guess you'd call them now, fantasy
horror geeks, who published little magazines, and one of those guys published my first real fiction. It wasn't a paid sale. I submitted it under the title of I Was a Teenage Grave Robber, and it was retitled In a Half-World of Terror, and that was published by a kid from Alabama named Mike Garrett. And Mike Garrett has gone on to have a career in comics.
And my recollection is that one of the other people who was involved with that, what we'd call fan mags at that time, that one of the other guys that was involved with Mike Garrett and may have submitted to his magazine was Marvin Wolfman. So that I knew the name. And I can't say 100 percent where I knew the name from, but I think it was from those early days.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So in this interview that we're discussing in Exhibit 65 --
A: That would be Starship?
Q: Starship, yes, sir. -- why did you think that Marv Wolfman was an editor of Creepy?
A: I don't know.
BY MR COOK: Okay. I want to hand you what is on the disc and marked a paper copy here of Exhibit 47.
MR COX: Thanks.
MR COOK: Sorry.
MR COX: You can throw it. It won't seem disrespectful at all.
MR COOK: Okay. Thank you.
BY MR COOK: And this is a horror magazine, Horror Biz magazine, I'm sorry, number four.
A: Yeah, fan mag, I think, close to it.
Q: Published by James Warren.
A: Horror Biz was published by Warren?
Q: Well, that's what it says on the front. At the bottom it says "publisher James Warren" across the bottom.
MR COX: It says "Interview with publisher James Warren."
MR COOK: Oh, interview with publisher. I'm sorry.
MR COX: Yeah.
BY MR COOK: And I'm focusing on the right-hand column beneath the question, it says, "HB: I heard you actually rejected a story Stephen King submitted for Creepy." And if you want to read from there down. Okay. And I apologize if I asked this already, but do you know James Warren?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever met him?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Well, in this interview, Mr. Warren states -- and I'm going to summarize. I'm going to paraphrase it. We'll let the actual words speak for themselves. For the matter of the record, I'm going to paraphrase it.
Mr. Warren indicates that, in 1972, he hired Marv Wolfman as an editor and that you submitted story ideas to their comic book titles.
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: Do you believe that that's true, that you did submit story ideas in 1972?
MR COX: Objection. Misrepresents the exhibit. But it speaks for itself.
THE WITNESS: I can't answer the question because I don't recall. I don't recall doing that.
BY MR COOK: When you say, "I don't recall," I just need to clarify. Are you saying you don't know if you did or you did not or are you saying --
A: I'm saying I don't remember.
Q: So you don't know whether you did or you did not? You don't remember whether you did or did not submit story ideas in 1972?
A: That's correct. But what interests me here is that Marv Wolfman knew me from that fanzine story, In a Half-World of Terror, the Mike Garrett story. That's where I knew his name from.
Q: Because you think Marv Wolfman was involved with that fanzine that actually published your I Was a Teenage Grave Robber under a different name?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Okay.
A: That's my speculation.
Q: Well, I don't --
A: I'm not supposed to speculate.
Q: I don't want you to speculate. Is that your reasonable belief?
A: No. It's my speculation. That's the best I can do.
BY MR COOK: Okay. Okay. I'm going to hand you what's marked as Exhibit 39 and is on the disc as such. And these are some excerpts from The Horror Writer Market and the Ten Bears --
A: Right.
Q: -- dated November 1973. I'm not going to make you read it all. I'm going to bring your attention to page 202.
A: Okay.
Q: And so you wrote this -- I guess we'll call it -- it's not really a story, but you wrote The Horror Writer Market and the Ten Bears?
A: Yes.
Q: And, on page 202, it states, "Below are some address of magazine titles for the comic market. As you can see, they're all chain publications." And one of them you list is Warren Publishing Company, and you list W. B. Dubay as the managing editor. So do you agree with me that, as of the time you wrote The Horror Writer Market and the Ten Bears, that you were aware that W. B. Dubay was the managing editor of Creepy, Eerie, and Vampirella?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Well, did you write this?
A: No, I didn't write this. This was added by the editor. I listed the magazines, and whoever proofed the article or prepared the article -- I think this originally appeared in Writer's Digest maybe. This is a reprint from somewhere else.
The Horror Writer and the Ten Bears is the most requested reprint of anything that I ever wrote. I mean, go figure, but it is. And I think it was originally done for Writer's Digest. That's my recollection of it. And what happened was I listed a number of magazines, and they found the addresses and the people to address those submissions to. So, no, I didn't know that Dubay was the editor, at least I don't recall that I knew that any more than I knew, at Skywald, Alan Hewitson; or Roy Thomas from the Marvel Group; or Eerie, Carl Burgos. Any of those names would have been added when the article was published or when it was reprinted, but they weren't done by me.
Q: Okay. So, if I understand your testimony correctly, you're saying that what you actually wrote as The Horror Writer Market and the Ten Bears did not contain the information that's in the box as listed on page 202 of this exhibit.
A: What I wrote was a list of companies that I knew that published the type of material that I was writing about, the horror writing stuff. But as far as the inner workings, the publisher, the editor, and all those people, I didn't put that in there. They put it in there in order to help their readers.
I'm assuming it was Writer's Digest. And if it was, it was a magazine for aspiring writers. And one of the things that they had to know was who to address their submissions to.
Q: So the sentence that says, "Below are some address and magazine titles for the comic market. As you can see, they're all chain publications."
A: Right.
Q: You -- you --
A: So --
Q: Let me just finish my question.
A: Fine.
Q: Because I think I understand you.
A: Thank you.
Q: What you're saying is that the editor or someone after you finished your work added in or altered that because what you actually submitted would have been just the listing of Warren Publishing Company, Skywald Publishing Corporation, et cetera, and then they subsequently went in, put in the addresses, the magazines published, and the editors as listed here?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay.
A: The only other possibility is that I might have gotten -- and, again, we're talking about a long time ago.
Q: Yes, sir.
A: And we're talking about preinternet and Google  and all that other stuff.
There was a magazine at that time called Writer's Market. Not Writer's Digest, Writer's Market. Writer's Market was a big thick thing that you picked up, and it cost like a huge amount in those days, like $3 or $3.50, and they had lists of every magazine, the editors, the chief writers, the addresses, all those things. I might have consulted that. But my recollection is that this was added by the people that I submitted this to.
Q: Would you -- when this -- I'm going to call it a story. I know it's not a story. But when this –
A: It's an article.
Q: It's an article. Okay. Thank you. When this article was originally published, which you believe would have been in the Writer's Digest, if I'm following you correctly --
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- when it was published, would you have gotten a copy and read or reviewed it?
A: I would have gotten a contributor's copy. But a chance to review it, to copy edit it, no.
Q: Okay. Yeah. I'm saying once the finished product that's sold to the general public, or whomever it is sold to, so when you finish writing a book, do you typically get a copy of what is sent or marketed, we'll say, to the general public?
A: Yes, typically.
Q: And do you typically read that?
A: Typically?
Q: Typically is an obtuse term, so let me --
A: It's a little bit general.
Q: Yeah. Let me try it like this: Do you always read the final finished product?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you make a normal practice of reading the final finished product?
A: Again, normal. Why don't you ask me if I read this particular piece when it was finished, then we can maybe cut through this.
Q: Did you read this particular piece when it was finished?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. The article goes on to say, "The Warren Publications are the most open to freelance inquiries and contributions;  they were first in the field and still publish the best material."
Now, is that something that you would have written or is that something that was added by a subsequent editor?
A: My guess is that if I wrote that, I picked it up from Writer's Market. And it wouldn't have been particularly accurate.
I'm a little bit embarrassed by that, actually, because, at that time, most of the stories in Creepy and Eerie were staff written.
Q: Okay. Actually, let me take a step back. So you think you did or did not write that, the sentence I just read?
A: I think I did.
Q: Okay. And you go on onto page 203, or the article goes on, to state, "They use from 15 to 18 stories per month (to get an idea how good the form can be when it's working, see 'Dead Man's Race' in Creepy number 54, story by Jack Butterworth and art by Martin Salvador)." Did you write that sentence or was that added subsequently by an editor or someone else?
A: I don't recall, but I think that's probably mine.
Q: Okay. So would it be accurate that, in order to write that, that you probably read Dead Man's Race and Creepy number 54?
A: Absolutely, yes.
Q: And the statement that they use from 15 to 18 stories per month, in order to make that statement, wouldn't you have had to review multiple editions over a period of months in order to know how many articles --
A: No.
Q: You wouldn't. So where would you have obtained that information?
A: Writer's Market.
Q: So did you regularly read Writer's Market, then, or do you think that that's something you used as a resource in order to compose -- let me start that over. Is your testimony that you used Writer's Market as a resource in writing The Horror Writer Market and the Ten Bears?
A: I don't recall.
Q: Well, if I understand this sentence, "They use from 15 to 18 stories per month (to get an idea how good the form can be when it's working, see
'Dead Man's Race' in Creepy number 54, story by Jack Butterworth and art by Martin Salvador)," that statement, do you know if you obtained that information by reviewing Creepy comic books or from Writer's Market?
Do you know which one of those?
A: It's a two-part question. Did I read Dead Man's Race? I don't recall that I did. But if it's in there and I said -- and if I formed a critical judgment, the answer to that question would almost certainly be yes --
Q: Okay.
A: -- given the passage of time in between. That's part one.
Part two of your question is: They use 15 to 18 stories per month. That sounds to me like it came from Writer's Market.
Q: Because, if I understand Writer's Market, and, admittedly, I've never seen it, is that more of a statistical compilation of information as opposed to -- let me rephrase. I'm trying to get a general idea of what Writer's Market is.
A: Writer's Market was a resource for writers who were trying to break into the trade or wanted to find markets for the sort of thing that they were writing. It was a thick magazine that was published either once a year or twice a year, and half of it would be articles about how to and what to do and things like, you know, The Horror Market and the Seven Bears, ideas about how to attack the material you were doing. So that was the front half of the book.
The second half of the book was like a phone directory, and it listed magazines alphabetically, I don't want to say literally and go on the record with that, but pretty much every mainstream magazine that was published in America at that time. At that time there were a great many magazines that were published in America. So it would start with the A's and work through to the Z's. And, with each magazine, the magazine would be in bold type, and below it they would list the editor, if it was stories, they'd list the publisher, they'd list the story editor, and the address would be there, do they accept unsolicited manuscripts or do you have to be agented to get in the magazine.
I noticed one of the things in this little thing is that it doesn't say anything about agents or unagented. So that would not have been in the book or I would not have known. And, certainly, I wouldn't have known if I had never submitted stories to them.
But, following that, there would be a description of the kind of material that they choose and how much of that material they published in each issue of the magazine. And they would also have an approximate length of time before you would hear back. So they had all that information in there. That was a resource, a research resource.
Q: Let's go back to page -- and I understand what you're saying, and thank you for that explanation. Let's go back to page 202. The bottom sentence -- and I'm just going to focus on -- it says, "and still publish the best material."
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Is that something that you would have obtained from the Writer's Market or is that you giving your opinion or statement about -- that they still publish the best material?
A: That would have been a bouquet, I think. That would have been a fan reaction more than a critical reaction.
Q: You kind of lost me on that. But let's see if I understand. What I'm asking you is: Is it the thought or the statement that they still -- "and still publish the best material," is that something from you or is that something from Writer's Market or another source? In other words --
A: I can't tell you 100 percent one way or the other. So I'd have to say I don't know.
Q: And -- and you indicated that was --
A: My guess is that I wrote it, and it was based on my love for the material when I was reading Creepy and Eerie, but not necessarily on what I was reading at the time that I wrote this article. I don't even know when the article was originally published in Writer's Digest.
Q: I believe it was November of '73.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: So -- and you said -- before you clarified your answer, you said something about it's a bouquet, I'm not quoting directly, so you don't have to object. You said something about it's more of a fan perspective as opposed to a critical comment or something to that effect. Explain to me what you were conveying there.
A: Well, my mother used to say, "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all." And so I have a tendency to be a cheerleader, and that's my answer.
Q: Okay. Yeah. One more question on Exhibit 39. If you turn to page 201, which is one page prior – and I'm going to be focusing on the second paragraph at the bottom. It says --
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- "In a recent issue of Creepy, a college student took a writer severely to task for putting a witch-burning into his story of the Salem witchcraft
hysteria of the 1660s. No Salem 'witch' was burned, the reader quite rightfully pointed out. Again, reading the market is essential." is the start of the next paragraph.
So, based upon that, do you believe that you had recently read an article of Creepy that contained the reference that a college student took a writer severely to task for putting a witch-burning into his story? Do you admit that you had recently read a Creepy magazine?
A: If I said it, then probably the answer is yes.
Q: So you would agree that when you wrote this, The Horror Writer Market and the Ten Bears, that you had access to Warren Publishing's Eerie comic book?
A: Yes.
MR COOK: Okay. There have been a lot of interviews and discussions about where you get the ideas for your works from, and I'm going to play another video. This is titled, Can't Remember Where They Came From Video, and we'll call that 1C for reference. Hopefully the sound is better.
MR FREDEKING: I think it's audible.
(Video was played and not reported by the court reporter.)
BY MR COOK: Okay. And, first of all, do you recognize that video interview as being you?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
MR COX: By the way, did you call that Exhibit 1C?
MR COOK: Yes, I did.
MR COX: Okay.
BY MR COOK: And I don't need to get into the entire creation story of Roland Deschain and The Dark Tower right now, which we're going to get to, but what I want to ask you is: In that video, you state sometimes you know where the ideas came from and sometimes you do not. In regards to Roland Deschain, if I'm saying that properly --
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- do you know where the idea for Roland Deschain came from? Because, in the video, you say half the time you do and half the time you don't. And my question is: Which one is Roland Deschain? Is he one that you know where the idea came from or is he one that you don't know the idea came from?
MR COX: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. Assumes a fact not in evidence, specifically, that Roland is only one idea.
MR COOK: Let me rephrase. We'll say the character Roland Deschain and all that encompasses him.
THE WITNESS: Well, all that encompasses him is a little bit broad.
BY MR COOK: Fair enough. So let me try to -- third time is a charm. See if I can ask a more coherent question. In the interview, you state that about half the time you know where you got your ideas and about half the time you don't. For the character Roland Deschain, do you know where you got the idea or ideas for Roland Deschain?
A: Yes.
MR COX: Where he first got the idea? Just so we're clear. That way we know where we're starting, because there are a number of ideas in Roland, and they came at different times.
MR COOK: Well, we're going to get to that. I just want to ask about – your answer is yes, you do know?
MR COOK: Okay. And we're going to get to it later.
MR COX: Okay. I'm objecting on the grounds that it's vague and ambiguous and assumes that there's only one idea. It's unclear as to what idea you're referring to. And he wasn't – Roland Deschain --
MR COOK: We're going to get to that, and I think it'll be unpacked. I note your objection.
MR COX: Okay. Let me finish my objection.
MR COOK: Okay.
MR COX: He wasn't named Roland Deschain until the fourth book.
MR COOK: Okay. So --
MR COX: So the idea of Roland Deschain --
MR COOK: I have to stop you. Please. I don't mind the objections, but you can't start providing testimony such as --
MR COX: Well, I'm trying to tell you why you're stating something that's ambiguous. Are you saying the idea of Roland in the fourth book or the idea of Roland in the first book? Because the idea of Roland Deschain couldn't exist until the fourth book, when he was named Roland Deschain.
That's the point that I'm trying to make, so we have a clearer record.
MR COOK: Okay. Thank you for that.
MR DUBAY: In the revision or the original one.
MR COOK: Right. And we're going to get to that --
MR COX: Thank you.
MR COOK: -- to address all of those concerns.
MR COX: Thank you.
MR COOK: I do understand your distinction. Thank you. Okay. We're going to play another video. This is called Read a Lot of Books. And we'll mark it as 1D for reference. It is on the disc that is marked as a composite exhibit.
(Video played and not reported by the court reporter.)
BY MR COOK: And I won't call it an interview, but that video, first of all, do you remember that recording?
A: Not specifically, no.
Q: Okay. You indicate in there, and, again, I'm paraphrasing, and we'll let the actual words speak for themselves, that number one, you gotta read a lot of books, and, number two, that you copy the material that you like. So --
A: Well --
MR COX: Objection. Misrepresents the recording. Just for the record I'm saying that.
MR COOK: I think it says specifically, "and I copy the material."
MR COX: I think he said copy the styles.
MR COOK: All right. Well let's play it back again.
MR COX: Okay.
(Video played and not reported by the court reporter.)
MR FREDEKING: Let me know if it's not --
THE WITNESS: I can't hear it.
MR COOK: You can bring it down here.
THE WITNESS: That's fine.
(Video playing.)
MR COOK: Okay. That's fine.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So I stand corrected. You state that you like to copy the styles --
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: -- from stuff that you liked?
A: Well, when you're a young writer, and that was what the question was about, somebody who's beginning to write, you read a lot of books, you find the people that you like, and the most natural thing in the world is for you to fall into the style of the person that you admire.
As a college student, I read a lot of Faulkner, and my fiction is like Faulkner. When I got a little bit older,  I read a guy Don Robertson, and my style sort of when I was a teenager and read a lot of Lovecraft, I wrote a lot of these things with tenebrous unknowing monsters from the deep. It was the Lovecraft style. My mother used to say that milk takes the flavor of whatever it sits next to in the refrigerator. And that's the case with most writers. As you develop your own style and your own way of writing, you go through phases where you may feel like you want to write like Raymond Chandler, you may feel that you want to write like H. P. Lovecraft.
But, as time goes by, as you write more and more, your own voice comes out. It has to. It's part of your brain waves. It's part of the natural evolution of the writer.
Look, when a little girl is trying to figure out how to be a grown-up, she may clunk around in her mother's high heels. A little boy may put on a toothbrush mustache so he can look like Daddy. The process is the same with writers. There's an evolutionary process that goes on, stylistically
speaking, and that's what I was speaking about in that interview.
Q: Okay. And so my question is: Did you incorporate the Warren comics style into your writing?
A: No.
Q: Because you  did like Warren comics at some point. There may be some discrepancy about when, but you agree at some point you liked Warren comics?
A: Very much.
Q: Okay. And my understanding is you liked them earlier, in your younger years -- well, strike that. So if you liked the Warren comics, and what you're telling us here today is that it's natural to incorporate the materials that you like, how is it that you wouldn't have incorporated the Warren comics style into your writing style?
MR COX: Objection. Argumentative. Compound.
THE WITNESS: Should I answer?
MR COX: I mean, there were three – there were three clauses there that were independent. I think it's unintelligible as well.
MR COOK: If you answer, answer. If you want me to rephrase it, I'll try and rephrase it. I'll leave it to you.
THE WITNESS: I wasn't particularly interested in writing for comic books at that time.
BY MR COOK: I'm going to interrupt you. I apologize for interrupting.
At what time?
A: When I was a teenager, when I was developing my style. I read them. I read the Creepy and Eerie comic books. But as a developing writer, I was much more interested in writers like Robert Bloch, Richard Matheson, Alfred Bester. I could go on and on. But they were prose writers, they were not comic writers.
MR COOK: Okay. I think I understand your answer. We're going to do another interview, and we'll mark this as 1E. And it's captioned on the disc as Impossible Not to Copy Video.
(Video played and not reported by the court reporter.)
BY MR COOK: So, first of all, you recognize yourself in the video?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay.
A: A much younger iteration.
Q: So, in that video, you say -- and I'm paraphrasing -- I think you say step on other people's toes. Explain to me what you mean by that.
A: Can you be more specific?
Q: Well, you make the statement you can't help but step on other people's toes. I presume you're not talking about in a crowded elevator. So what do you mean by you can't help but step on other people's toes?
A: Well, in a field like horror, there are certain archetypes that show up again and again. There's the creature under the bed, there's the thing in the closet. I don't know how many. The thing that comes back from the dead, being afraid of the dark, oogy, creepy, crawly things, spiders. There are any number of horror archetypes, and I've used them all at one time or another. And, because it's a narrow field, you find yourself coming back to those archetypes time and time again. There's just no way around it. I think that's my answer.
Q: Okay. Thank you. Let's talk about the artwork for The Dark Tower series that you wrote. Were you part of the team that developed and approved the artwork for The Dark Tower series?
A: No.
MR COX: By "The Dark Tower series," you mean the prose or do you mean the graphic novels? I couldn't tell.
MR COOK: I think it's eight novels that you wrote --
MR COOK: -- is what I'm referring to.
MR COX: So the prose novels.
MR COOK: The prose novels, thank you, yes.
MR COX: Thank you.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So you were not part of the team that developed and approved the artwork for the prose novels?
A: Yes.
Q: It would be -- I asked that backwards.
A: That's right.
Q: Okay.
A: I was not part.
Q: You were not part of the team, okay. In regards to the artwork unless I specify otherwise, when I say "The Dark Tower series," I'm talking about the prose novels. Okay?
MR COX: That's easier.
MR COOK: But you --
MR COX: Thank you very much.
MR COOK: Okay. I'll specify if I'm talking about, like, the Marvel or something else. Did you always retain the right to have input or veto power regarding the artwork that would be displayed on the cover of or within The Dark Tower series?
A: That's a complicated question. The answer, in terms of the Donald Grant books, where The Dark Tower books were originally published, there were no contractual obligations on the part of Donald Grant or Robert Wiener for me to agree that their artist was the one that they picked, but I always said yes. That was Don's thing and that was Bob Wiener's thing, it wasn't mine, so ....
Q: And just let me stop and let me clarify because I want to make sure I understand. When you're talking about the original books, I'm going to --
A: Yeah.
Q: I'm just going to reference these, I'm not, obviously, going to mark them. But are you talking about -- and I'm holding the Fantasy & Science Fiction, the five editions that contain the original Gunslinger. Is that what you're referring to?
A: No.
Q: Okay. That's what I thought. Because when you said the orig -- to me, and correct me if I'm wrong --
A: I'm not talking about that either.
Q: No.
MR COX: Wait until it's shown, and we'll have a clearer record.
MR COOK: Right.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry.
MR COX: That's all right.
BY MR COOK: Let me just clarify a couple things. So the original publications of The Gunslinger were in the Fantasy & Science Fiction --
MR COX: Magazines.
BY MR COOK: You call these magazines? Okay.
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. Correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So when you said the original, these Fantasy & Science Fictions are what I consider the originals, so I wanted to clarify --
A: Well, you specifically asked me about the books.
Q: Okay. Well, that's why I'm clarifying.
MR DUBAY: This is the first mass market release.
MR COX: And that was 19 --
MR COOK: Yeah, this is the 19 --
MR COX: That's a 1988 release, but it has the same text as the 1982 release.
BY MR COOK: So in regards to the 1982 book is what you're referring to as --
A: I don't know when the book --
MR COX: Well, we can just stipulate, for the record, that The Gunslinger was originally published as a novel, in 1982 by Donald R. Grant Publishers.
MR COOK: Okay. That's what I'm --
MR COX: As a hard cover.
BY MR COOK: And is that --
A: Right.
Q: Okay. Thank you.
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And so, in regards to that book, are you saying -- what we're referring to as the original Gunslinger, for purposes of this deposition, in 1982 -- did you have the right to approve or veto the artwork for the cover?
A: What do you mean by right?
Q: Well, let me take it back a little bit. Did you see the cover before it was actually published and distributed to the public for sale?
A: No, not to my recollection.
Q: Okay. So if I understood your prior answer, basically, whatever they were going to put on the cover, you would have been fine with it?
A: No.
Q: Okay.
A: Can I cut through this a little bit?
Q: Please. Absolutely.
A: Donald Grant said that he wanted to hire Michael Whelan to do the art for the book, and I said that was fine. I knew Whelan's work from fantasy conventions. So I said, Yes, go ahead. You tell me if I'm exceeding my brief --
MR COX: You're doing fine. You're doing fine. But, in general, you should listen to the question and answer the question, that's the way this works, because we want to have a clear record.
THE WITNESS: I want it to be clear. In other words, well, never mind.
MR COX: That's right.
THE WITNESS: Never mind.
MR COOK: Okay. I want to reference a book, Lilja's Library: The World of Stephen King, by Hans-Ake Lilja, if I'm saying that correctly.
MR COX: I think it's Lilja's Library.
MR COOK: Lilja's?
MR COX: Yeah.
MR COOK: Thank you. Lilja.
BY MR COOK: Are you familiar with this book, Mr. King?
A: I don't own a copy.
Q: Have you ever read it?
A: No.
Q: Okay. I'm going to start with reading a passage. This is, according to the book, an interview of Michael Whelan. And, obviously, I'll let the context of the book speak for itself, but they're referring to his artwork for The Dark Tower series. And at the top of page 135, Michael Whelan, according to this book, states, "When I was initially contacted about the project, I was presented with a legal document that insisted I give Steve first right of refusal on all the images I created. It also said that he had to approve each idea before I could paint it, and blah, blah. So I said to him, 'Steve, what the hell is this?' He was very cool about it and said, 'Forget about it. Just do whatever you want. I'm sure it'll be great.'" So --
MR COX: Could we see that?
MR COOK: Sure.
MR COX: I think you might be referring to something different from what he was talking about his dealings with Donald Grant on the first book, and Mr. Whelan was retained on two different books.
MR COOK: Okay.
MR COX: And I think that may refer to the second book rather than the first one.
MR COOK: Please.
MR COX: Let me just see.
MR COOK: I drew a pen mark on the top.
MR COX: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Hold on a minute, though. Yeah, 2004. That's the second book.
MR COX: Yeah.
BY MR COOK: And just let me ask: When you're saying "the second book," what is the second book?
MR COX: He did the artwork for book seven --
MR COX: -- of The Dark Tower.
BY MR COOK: Okay. And so earlier we were talking about Michael Whelan and his role in the artwork.
MR COX: For book one.
MR COOK: Right. So what you're clarifying is this is in regards to book seven?
MR COX: In regards to book seven, yes.
MR COOK: I understand.
BY MR COOK: So, in regards to book seven, in this paragraph I just read, you said, "Forget about it. Just do whatever you want. I'm sure it'll be great." Why did you give such discretion to Mr. Whelan in determining the artwork?
MR COX: Objection. Foundation.
THE WITNESS: By 2004, the books were being originally published by Grant, but the money on those books and all the contractual obligations came from either Scribner's or New American Library, I can't remember which, probably Scribner's at that point, Simon & Schuster, and I had all these approvals contractually. And if Michael had a separate contract, that's something I can't speak to. All I know is that when I assured him, what I meant was that I was never going to make any objections to anything that he did. I was happy with whatever he did.
BY MR COOK: Okay. Okay. I'm going to reference page 59 of this book, and I'll give it to you as well. And according to this book, this is an interview of you. The question is: "How much input have you had in it since it's not based on something that you have previously written?"
And the -- and your answer is: "Well, with the first one, I had a lot of input because it was basically Wizard and Glass, but my feelings about stuff like this are the same whether it's movies or something like a graphic novel. The comic books are very similar to movies in a lot of ways. They become more and more cinematic when things go by, wouldn't you agree with that?"
And I'll certainly give it to you, and you're entitled to read as much of it for context -- let me make a little note. Right there.
MR COX: Let me look over his shoulder here.
THE WITNESS: Which page is it?
MR COOK: A: little blue pen mark beside it.
MR COX: At least get the context.
THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. This is about the comics. I see. Uh-huh.
What's your question?
BY MR COOK: Sure. So my question is: In regards to the comics, if  I'm correct, that is the context of this statement?
MR COX: You're talking about the graphic novels?
MR COOK: Yes, sir.
MR COX: Okay. Thank you.
MR COOK: Well, he uses the word comics. But, yeah, graphic novels, I think, is more appropriate.
MR COX: Thank you.
BY MR COOK: You state that you had a lot of input. You say, "With the first one, I had a lot of input because it was basically Wizard and Glass."
What type of input did you have?
A: They told me that it was going to be based on the book, and I wrote the book. So it was my book, basically.
Q: And -- and just --
A: That was the input. The input was the book.
Q: Okay. And when you say "the book," just clarify. Are you talking about Wizard --
A: The novel Wizard and Glass.
Q: Okay.
A: Sorry to interrupt.
Q: Same for myself. So what you're testifying to today is that your input was the fact that you wrote Wizard and Glass --
A: Yes.
Q: -- but you didn't actually have input into the development of what's referred to in there as the comic, what we are referring to as the graphic novel?
A: If you're asking did I look over their shoulders and approve the development, the answer is: I did not.
Q: Did you have the opportunity to look over their shoulders and approve the development?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. And I'm going to turn to – thank you -- page 196. Okay. I'm going to make a mark here. And this is an interview with Ralph Macchio, I believe is how you say his name. And it states: "Yes, as the editor, I really oversee the entire project; the art, the coloring, the whole thing, what an editor does on any other book. This is a bit different, though, because you're dealing with an outside force in that you do have Stephen King at the top of the pyramid, which is just where he should be. We want his approval and approbation and his guidance every step of the way, and he gives that."
And I'll give this to you to read the context, if you'd like.
MR COX: Do you have a question?
MR COOK: I do.
MR COX: While he's reading it, could you ask a question or do you want him to read it and then ask a question?
MR COOK: I'll let him read it and --
MR COX: Okay. Thank you.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So, according to this interview published in this book, you did provide guidance and approval and approbation and his guidance every step of the way. You did give that?
MR COX: Objection. No proper foundation. He said he wanted it.
BY MR COOK: Well, in the book there it says, "and he gives that." Does it say he gives it or he did give that? I may have typed it wrong.
A: It does say "he gives that."
Q: Okay.
A: Now your question is?
Q: My question is: So what types of actions did you take in giving your approval, approbation, and your guidance every step of the way? How would that work?
MR COX: Objection. Foundation.
THE WITNESS: I didn't oversee it in any way. I had contractual approvals which I didn't choose to exercise.
BY MR COOK: So would you disagree with what Ralph Macchio is stating in that excerpt that we just read?
A: Yes.
MR COOK: Okay. I'd like to play a video, and we'll identify this, rather, as 1F, and it's called Part of Team on the exhibit that's attached.
MR FREDEKING: Let him listen to it through --
MR COOK: Okay.
MR FREDEKING: -- headphones?
MR COOK: You can let him listen to it through the headphones.
THE WITNESS: Let's see how it is.
MR COOK: All right. Maybe everybody would like to hear it.
MR COX: No. I think I need to hear it too.
MR COX: Yeah, I think that's kind of important.
(Video played but not reported by the court reporter).
THE WITNESS: I can't hear it. I'll let you listen to it after. How long is the clip?
MR FREDEKING: 20 seconds.
THE WITNESS: Okay. Start from the beginning.
(Video played but not reported by the court reporter.)
THE WITNESS: Now, is he talking about the comic books or the movies?
MR COOK: I believe he's talking about the comic books.
THE WITNESS: Play it again, please.
(Video played and not reported by the court reporter.)
THE WITNESS: Still a little bit -- you want to listen to it?
MR COX: Thank you.
THE WITNESS: There are a couple of words that are just not there.
Do you have a transcript?
THE WITNESS: No. I can't speak to that video at all.
BY MR COOK: And that's because you can't --
A: Can't hear it.
Q: Isn't audible enough?
A: I say something about the something method, and I have no idea what that is.
Q: Okay. Well, I'm going to -- understood. And probably an objection, but I'm going -- I'm focusing on a particular part of it that maybe you can listen to later or we can have a transcript made. But in that it says that -- focusing on – you state it was a team effort. Okay? And my question is: What was your role in that team effort for the Marvel graphic novels or comic books, whichever term you want to use?
A: None.
Q: Okay.
A: When I speak about a team effort, I'm talking about Macchio, Robin Furth, the artists involved, Peter David, who wrote the script. And, of course, as a team effort, the only other thing that I can add is that I wrote the books that they were basing their things on, but I had no input into this.
Q: Okay. Now, were you familiar with the artwork that was in Warren comics?
MR COX: I didn't -- at a particular time or particular title or --
MR COOK: Well, yeah. Well, let's start with -- if the answer to that is yes, then you can clarify what time period.
THE WITNESS: You've got to be a little more specific.
MR COOK: Sure.
BY MR COOK: Okay. When I say "Warren comics," you understand what I'm talking about?
MR COX: Objection.
THE WITNESS: You're talking about a number of different comics there. You're talking about Creepy, Eerie, Vampirella, whatever else.
BY MR COOK: Okay. Well, what other else do you consider in your mind as part of the Warren comics family?
A: Those three were the only ones that I knew.
Q: Okay. So let's focus on those three.
A: Okay.
Q: Were you at any time familiar with the artwork in Eerie, Creepy, Vampirella?
MR COX: You mean and or or?
MR COOK: I'll say and; with all three of them.
THE WITNESS: I was familiar with the artwork in Creepy. I was familiar with the artwork in Eerie. I was not very familiar with the artwork in
Vampirella because that's around the time that I dropped out. And the other thing that I would say there is that I was very familiar with the art in Creepy and Eerie in the early issues. In the later issues, they began to use a much wider array of artists that were new to me, and them I don't recall.
BY MR COOK: Well, I'm going to ask you: Do you recognize Reed Crandall as one of the artists --
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Excuse me.
Q: Okay. So, first of all, did you ever meet Reed Crandall?
A: No.
Q: Okay. What artwork that is in Eerie, Creepy or Vampirella and you said that you weren't really familiar with the artwork in Vampirella, so I'm going to limit it to Eerie and Creepy. Do you know what time period Reed Crandall did artwork for Eerie and Creepy?
A: No, I don't. The only way that you could check that is to find out when the first issues were published, when Creepy and Eerie originally were published. My memory is that Reed Crandall was there from near the beginning.
Q: Do you know, to the best of your recollection, was Reed Crandall still there, at some point I think it's your testimony that you stopped reading these Eerie, Creepy --
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- and --
A: That was my testimony.
Q: Yes. Do you know if Reed Crandall was still doing artwork for Eerie and Creepy at the time that you testified that you stopped reading Eerie and Creepy?
A: No.
Q: No, you don't know?
A: No -- you can't --
Q: Ask --
A: Ask again.
Q: Yes. I'm sorry. I asked a bad question. At some point in time you testified that you stopped reading Eerie and Creepy.
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: Yes?
A: Yes.
Q: And my question is: When you stopped, was Reed Crandall still doing artwork for Eerie and Creepy at the time that you stopped?
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay.
MR COX: Incidentally, when we come to a change in topic, I wanted to allow the witness to amend some prior testimony about lawsuits that he's filed. There was another lawsuit that he filed that we didn't mention, just in case you --
MR COOK: Okay. That's fine. Actually, your timing is impeccable, as I am getting ready to change topics right now. So ....
MR COX: All right.
MR COOK: Go ahead.
MR COX: This relates to the accident that you had, the lawsuit relating --
MR COX: -- to the accident that you had. Why don't you just -- I'll ask the question. Was there another lawsuit that you filed, other than the one that you previously testified to?
MR COX: And what was that lawsuit?
THE WITNESS: I think it -- the suit was against Brian Smith, the guy who hit me. It might have been against the insurance company as well. Warren handled it. He would know better than I would.
MR COX: Okay. That all.
MR COOK: That's it?
MR COX: Just wanted -- yeah.
MR COOK: All right. Thank you.
BY MR COOK: Okay. We're going to turn to The Gunslinger. When did you first write The Gunslinger?
A: Spring of 1970.
Q: And where were you when you got the idea for The Gunslinger?
A: I was at the University of Maine in Orono.
Q: And what were you doing at the University of Maine?
A: I'm sorry?
Q: I'm sorry. What -- you were attending University of Maine?
A: Yes. That was my -- the semester of my senior year.
Q: Now, you wrote, I believe, another story called Slade; correct?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And are Slade and The Gunslinger two different works?
A: Yes.
Q: Which came first? Not the writing, but which idea, if you know, came first, Slade or The Gunslinger?
A: Slade came first.
Q: Okay. And when did you write Slade?
A: I think I was a junior or senior at the University of Maine. Those columns were published in The Maine Campus. So I would have been a student.
Q: And did you incorporate the character Slade into the character The Gunslinger?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Bev Vincent wrote -- or, rather, in Stephen King's Illustrated Companion, are you familiar with that work? Let me just make the question a little bit easier. Are you familiar with the work Stephen King Illustrated Companion?
A: What's the by line?
Q: Well, here. I've got it.
A: Is it Bev Vincent or is it Robin Furth?
Q: Bev Vincent. I've got it right --
A: No, I can't say I am.
Q: You're not familiar?
A: I've seen it. I've seen it. But I'm not familiar with it.
Q: Have you read it?
A: No.
Q: Have you reviewed it?
A: No.
Q: Do you know if you were interviewed by Bev Vincent for the purposes of Bev writing this book?
A: I may have been.
Q: Okay.
A: I don't recall.
Q: Well, let's talk about when you first wrote The Gunslinger. Do you remember what kind of paper that you wrote it on?
A: The original pages of The Gunslinger were written on paper that my wife and I and a friend of ours appropriated from the University of Maine library. They were probably meant for indexing or some purpose like that. But they were different colors and they were fairly narrow. I'm going to say they were about maybe five and a half and six wide by maybe seven or eight long, and they were very thick. They were like cardboard; almost like cardboard. You could run them into a typewriter. You couldn't have done that with cardboard.
Q: You say they were varying in color, do you recall what color the paper was that you wrote the original Gunslinger?
A: Yes. I got the green package.
Q: Okay. And what I want to ask you about is in this Bev Vincent, The Stephen King Illustrated Companion, on page 142 -- and I have a printed copy. This is also an exhibit, but there's a printed copy here, which isn't really germane. Actually, pardon me, Mr. King. If you'll take the original. Here. You can take this original. So in -- in this book, this is represented as being a copy of the original Gunslinger work that you typed up. Do you think that that's accurate?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And why do you think that's not accurate?
A: Because this is a retyping job that was done later; I think probably in 1974 or 1975. In other words, this was from an original manuscript.
Q: Okay. So, in your July 12, 1977, journal entry, which we have and I can show to you, but I'll represent that in the -- in the 19 -- July 12, 1977, journal entry, you say it's on blue paper.
MR COX: Well, then -- don't just represent. Please show it to us.
MR COOK: Okay.
BY MR COOK: Okay. And this is from Stephen King, The Dark Tower VI: Song of Susannah.
MR COX: That's a fictional work --
MR COOK: Okay.
MR COX: -- that you have in your hand.
MR COOK: Okay. On page --
MR COX: Not his journal entry.
BY MR COOK: On page 389, there is what is -- purports to be a reprint of the July 12, 1977, journal entry, and I'll let you read it. I'm just going to make a dot beside the section that I'm -- here you go. And while you're reading it, I'll just tell you what I'm focusing on so you're aware.
So this journal entry purports to state that it was on blue paper. Do you think in your actual journal it says green paper?
MR COX: Excuse me?
THE WITNESS: I don't have that journal.
MR COX: No. Actually, we do have the 1977 journal.
THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah, we do. Okay.
MR COX: And doesn't -- well, you -- are you asking him what's in the July 12, 1977 --
MR COOK: I'm asking him if he knows what's in the July --
THE WITNESS: This is fiction.
MR COOK: Okay.
THE WITNESS: This is a made-up diary entry.
BY MR COOK: Okay. Okay. There we go. There we have it. So it's your testimony that the original Gunslinger was written on green paper, as you described, this odd paper we'll call it.
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: You don't still have that original --
A: No.
Q: Okay. Do you know what happened to it?
A: No.
Q: When is the last time that you remember having possession of it?
A: I don't know.
Q: When you say it was retyped at some point, the original manuscript was retyped?
A: Is that a question or --
Q: It is. I'm asking you. I think that's what you testified to; is that correct?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. And so when it was retyped, do you know who -- I'm presuming that someone took the green paper, we'll call it, and retyped it onto different paper?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you know --
A: But not -- wait a minute.
Q: Yes, sir.
A: There's two parts to that question.
Q: Okay.
A: I'm not sure it was still on the green paper then because I may have reworked it myself prior to giving it for retyping. In fact, I almost positively did because I wouldn't have given those pages to a typist.
Q: Okay. So your recollection is that you took the original -- we'll call the green paper copy for reference. You took that original green paper copy and then retyped it and then gave the retyped version to whatever typist?
A: I don't recall. But based on what I've seen of the pages that exist from that time, yes, that's the case.
Q: And do you know who that person would have been that retyped it, the typist?
A: Yes.
Q: And who is that?
A: That was Denise May.
Q: Denise May? Is she now Denise Kelly?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you know when that would have been?
A: We came to Colorado. It would have been in late 1974 or early 1975. Probably late 1974 because she retyped a lot of pages.
Q: Okay. And you mentioned that you came to Colorado in your believed timeline. Did this event of retyping by Denise -- I'm going to call her Denise Kelly – by Denise Kelly, did this occur in Colorado?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Do you know where this would have occurred in Colorado? What I mean by that is was there an office? Did she do it at her house, if you know? Did she do it at your house?
A: We were in Boulder, and Denise was in Boulder. But as to the actual location where she did the retyping, no, I don't know of my own knowledge.
Q: Okay.
A: No.
Q: Do you recall if Denise had an office or if she worked at an office or if she worked out of her home?
A: I can't speak to that.
Q: Okay. So The Dark Tower series, did you originally intend it to be a bunch of short stories?
A: No.
MR COOK: Okay. I'd like to play another video called The Short Stories Video. We'll see if our audio is good for this one.
MR COX: Counsel, what exhibit number was this? The first page from this -- from the Illustrated Companion?
MR COOK: Yeah, you know, I didn't actually mark it. So why don't we mark it as 1G. Actually, I'm going to rephrase that. Let's mark it as 2 because all the other exhibits are part of the composite. So we'll call it 2.
MR COX: Thank you.
MR COOK: Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
THE WITNESS: When you're ready. I'm just looking for an antacid pill.
(Video played and not reported by the court reporter).
MR COOK: Okay.
BY MR COOK: So, first of all, do you remember that video; where it was, when it was, anything like that?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So, in that video, you say that the dark -- and I'm paraphrasing. We'll let the actual words speak for themselves -- that The Dark Tower series were either written as short stories, and then you go on to say something else. So what portion of The Dark Tower series were written as short stories?
A: None. That's not what I said.
Q: Okay.
A: Play the clip again.
MR COOK: Yeah, let's play it again. Maybe I misunderstood. That's why I'm playing the video so you can --
MR FREDEKING: Can you hear?
(Video played not reported by the court reporter).
BY MR COOK: Okay. So you say they were done as short stories.
A: What I meant by that was that the first five chapters of the first novel were published in Fantasy & Science Fiction without being edited.
Q: Right. Those five right there?
A: That's correct.
Q: So if I understand it correctly, it was always your intent, even though they were published as five chapters, it was your intent that The Gunslinger was a novel?
A: That's correct. I want to look at something --
Q: Sure.
A: -- here for a second.
Q: And, just for the record, we're reviewing the five Fantasy & Science Fiction --
A: You see --
Q: -- compilations.
A: -- this second part begins with a synopsis of the first part, the way that a novel would be serialized in subsequent issues of the magazine. So each one of these begins with a synopsis of what went before.
So, in other words, the synopsis indicates that they weren't separate things, they were all part of a whole, and the reader had to be refreshed on what had gone on before.
Q: Okay. Thank you for the clarification.
MR DUBAY: That's a synopsis for the first one.
BY MR COOK: Let's talk about characters in your stories. In particular, we want to talk about Roland Deschain. Do you keep -- as you're writing these, do you keep notes or an outline for Roland Deschain, also known as The Gunslinger, and all the other --
A: No.
Q: -- names? Okay, you do not.
MR COX: Be sure and wait for him to finish his question so that we get a clear record.
MR COX: Sometimes the question veers off at the last second.
MR COOK: That's okay.
BY MR COOK: Okay. And I'm referring to -- let me make sure I get the right -- this is The Dark Tower, The Gunslinger. I believe this is the '82?
MR DUBAY: Mass market '87.
MR COOK: It's the '87 edition. Okay. Thank you.
BY MR COOK: I want to bring your attention to page 219, which, in the afterword, it says, "The foregoing tale, which is almost, but not quite complete in itself, is the first stanza in a much longer work called The Dark Tower. Some of the work beyond this segment has been completed, but there is much more to be done. My brief synopsis of the action to follow suggests a length approaching 3000 pages, perhaps more. That probably sounds as if my plans for the story have passed beyond mere ambition and into the land of lunacy."
I'll give this to you so you can read it. What I want to ask you about is "My brief synopsis of the action to follow."
A: I don't know what that refers to.
Q: You don't know what the brief synopsis refers to?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Did you write the afterword?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: It might have something to do with the time between the original publication and the publication of that volume, although I'm only, again, speculating, which I know I'm not supposed to do. My feeling is the publisher may have asked me to add an afterword.
Q: Okay. I want to go back to the Fantasy & Science Fiction.
MR DUBAY: This is the first one.
MR COOK: I think I went -- the last one. And in this -- in the Fantasy & Science Fiction --
MR COX: Would you say the date of the issue so that we have a record?
MR COOK: Is it October of '78; is that correct?
MR COOK: Okay.
BY MR COOK: The very last paragraph, it says, "Thus ends what was written in the first book of Roland and his quest for the tower, which stands at the root of time" is the paragraph. And I'll hand it to you.
And my question is: That paragraph, was that part of the original work that you wrote on the green paper?
A: No.
Q: And at what point in time did you add that paragraph?
A: At the end of -- is this the fifth? Yes, this is the fifth one. I wanted readers to understand that there were more stories to come.
MR DUBAY: Correction. That's the first one.
MR COOK: Yeah.
MR COX: Take a look at it. I think it may be the first. I think it's the first one, though.
THE WITNESS: Is it the first one? Okay. Yeah. So I just added that so that people would know that the story wasn't complete.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So what I'm getting to is when you typed it on the green paper, it did not contain that paragraph?
A: Not to my knowledge. No. I'll say no.
Q: Okay.
A: Frankly, no.
Q: But then when you --
A: That was written for the publication in the magazine.
Q: Okay. Okay. Okay. I want to go over some of the responses to requests for admissions, which --
A: I'm sorry, for what?
Q: The responses to request for admissions. And I'll explain to you what that is.
A: Okay.
Q: You were asked to admit or deny that you were a fan of Warren Publishing Co.'s Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine.
MR COX: Would you show the witness the document.
MR COOK: I will. I'll get a copy of it. I'll grab them. There's an objection, and I'll give it to you.
MR FREDEKING: Rob, I have a copy.
MR COOK: You do? Even better.
BY MR COOK: I'll sit right in between you and Mr. Cox. There you go. So you guys can flip through it.
MR COX: What's your question you're talking to?
MR COOK: Number one.
MR COX: Okay. These are objections.
THE WITNESS: What's your question?
BY MR COOK: So the request was to admit that you were a fan of Famous Monsters of Filmland magazine, and you deny that. When did you first start reading Famous Monsters of Filmland?
A: Near of the beginning of their run; probably, at a guess, 1958.
Q: Did you subscribe to Famous Monsters of Filmland?
A: Not to my recollection.
Q: But you bought or obtained copies of it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. You had an interview published in Famous Monsters of Filmland, and it's on the disc as Exhibit 60, and I'm going to show you a copy of it.
Thank you. I want to reference on the left-hand column, starting with "I was teaching Dracula at that time" and I'm not going to read the whole thing, I'll let you read it since it's in the record already.
A: Which paragraph?
Q: On the left-hand column, I think it's the last paragraph or the second-to-last paragraph. "I was teaching Dracula at that time."
A: Uh-huh. Yeah. What's your question?
Q: My question is -- hold on one second. In that interview, you state that you incorporated, I can't read it on my screen. But you incorporated some of the comic -- well --
MR COX: Why don't you use the actual words that he used.
MR COOK: The EC comics into your --
MR COX: He doesn't use the word incorporate.
BY MR COOK: The Dracula thing was the basis, but then I just started thinking about the old EC comics, and I thought maybe I'd work this in. I was also thinking about Thornton Wilder's play, Our Town, and Peyton Place.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And so earlier we had discussion regarding comic books, and my understanding of your testimony, and I could have been incorrect, was that you didn't imitate or use the comic books in your writing because that isn't what you were writing. And what I'm asking about is in this interview, you state that you're using the EC comics and incorporating that -- granted, the word incorporated is not used -- but using that in your writing.
So do you use or rely upon your exposure to the comics in your writing?
MR COX: Objection. Vague. Ambiguous. Compound. His writing ever or his write --
MR COOK: Well, let's go with your writing ever.
THE WITNESS: I rely upon everything that I read.
A: It all goes into the machinery, and it's all the stuff that I've always liked, I've always tried to honor those things by using them. I mentioned Peyton Place in the same context here. Peyton Place is the archetypal story of secrets in a small New England town, and I wanted that to be a part of Salem's Lot,  there's a whole series of vampire stories in the EC comic books at that time, and I wanted to honor those traditions as well.
Q: Did you have access to Eerie and Creepy in 1976?
MR COX: Objection. Vague and ambiguous. Calls for a legal conclusion.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. The answer is: I don't know. I wasn't reading it, so I have no idea if I had access or not.
BY MR COOK: Well, when I say "access," I'm not asking you whether or not you read it.
A: I understand.
Q: Okay.
A: I'm sorry to interrupt.
Q: That's okay.
A: I understand you're asking me did I have access, and the answer is: No, because I didn't seek it out.
Q: But you were aware that it existed in 1976?
A: I may have.
Q: And same question for 1977.
A: I may have.
Q: And what about 1978?
A: I may have.
Q: I'm going to ask you to your -- '79.
A: Did I have access?
MR COX: No. He's asking --
THE WITNESS: Was I aware?
MR COX: Was I aware that they existed.
THE WITNESS: That would be no.
BY MR COOK: In 1979, you didn't know they existed?
A: I wouldn't know if they existed or not by then.
Q: What about 1980?
A: No.
Q: 1981?
A: No.
Q: And when you say "no," you don't know whether or not they still existed?
MR COX: He did not know at that time that they still existed.
BY MR COOK: You did not know --
A: I don't know.
Q: Okay. So you agree with me you had access to them during that time period of 1976?
A: No, I didn't agree.
MR COX: Excuse me. That's a misrepresentation of his testimony.
MR COOK: Well, okay.
MR COX: Quite explicit and quite intentional.
MR COOK: Okay. Well, let me ask it a little bit differently.
BY MR COOK: Between 1976 and 1981, did you have access to Eerie and Creepy?
A: I don't know, because I didn't seek them out.
Q: Well, I think there's some confusion. Are you saying you didn't know whether or not they existed.  I'm not asking you if you sought them out. Well, let's start with that. Between 1976 and 1981, did you ever seek out Eerie or Creepy?
A: No. No.
Q: And you don't know whether or not they even existed from the time period of 1976?
MR COX: His testimony from 1979 is when he made that distinction, I believe.
THE WITNESS: Let's be clear here.
MR COOK: Sure.
THE WITNESS: I was a constant visitor to bookstores, to places that sold magazines. I was an omnivore, still am an omnivore, and I can't say whether my eyes swept across them and I said, Aha, Creepy is still there or Eerie is still there or Vampirella is still there. The covers were eye-catching and they might have caught my eye, but I don't recall.
BY MR COOK: Okay. But you never actually sought out Eerie or Creepy between 1976 and 1981?
A: To the best of my recollection, I did not.
MR COOK: Yeah.
MR FREDEKING: -- can I jump in with some questions?
MR COX: No. We're not going to tag team the witness.
MR COOK: I want -- okay. I'm referring to Danse Macabre.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: And you wrote this book; correct?
A: I did.
Q: Okay. And I'm referring to page 369, and actually starting on page 368. And I'll read it and then I'll give it to you. "Even below the sword and sorcery stories are the superheroes who populate the comic magazines of the only two remaining giants in the field – although 'giants' is almost too strong a word; according to a survey published in a 1978 issue of Warren's Creepy magazine, comic readership has gone into what may be an irrecoverable skid. These characters, traditionally called 'long-underwear heroes' by the bullpen artists who draw them, are invisible."
And I'll give this to you so you can read it. It starts at the bottom of page 368 up to the top of page 369.
Okay. When did you write Danse Macabre?
A: 1981.
Q: Okay. And that's when it was published. How long did it take you to write it? Like, during what time period did you --
A: I don't recall.
Q: Okay. So after reviewing Danse Macabre, as you wrote there, do you agree with me that at least once you sought out a 1978 issue of Creepy
magazine and actually cited to a survey published in 1978 Creepy?
A: Yes.
Q: So earlier when you testified, I went through each year, I believe, from 1976 to 1981; you said you didn't know if they existed or not. Do you now acknowledge that during that time frame you did know that Creepy and Eerie existed?
A: Yes.
Q: And you referred to them as the giants in the field?
A: Yes.
Q: So would you now agree with me that during that time frame, 1976 to 1981, you did have access to Eerie and Creepy?
MR COX: Objection.
THE WITNESS: Well, I would say --
MR COX: Vague and ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: I would say this: First of all, keep in mind that's 40 years ago. So my testimony here is based on recollections going back 40 years in the past. And I may have seen issues of Creepy and Eerie, and I'm willing to stipulate, as the lawyers say, that I saw at least one issue in 1978. But calling them giants in the field might have been slight hyperbole. They were the only ones left, so far as I knew.
BY MR COOK: Well, you almost indicate that -- it's not a direct quote -- you said giants may be too big of a word, or something to that effect.  Okay. And I'm going to hand you -- and we're going to find the exhibit number that is -- as it's listed on the disc.
MR COOK: Okay. Thank you. It's E64 on the disc.
MR COX: What is the exhibit?
MR COOK: Yeah, this is an original.
MR COX: Let me see what the cover is, what the date on the cover is.
MR DUBAY: August something.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm sure there's a date here somewhere.
MR DUBAY: It's usually on the top right corner of the magazine front page. August 1978.
THE WITNESS: It says published monthly except in April and December.
MR DUBAY: See under the Y?
THE WITNESS: That is August of 1978.
MR COX: And is there a section of the page you want to direct his attention to?
MR COOK: I will, yes.
MR DUBAY: Back home on the ranch.
MR COOK: What's that?
MR DUBAY: Back home on the ranch.
MR COOK: I'm sorry, well, actually, I can pull it up.
THE WITNESS: You want it back?
MR COOK: No, I can pull it up. I just had to get the number. Okay. The section I'm referring to is on the bottom right-hand corner, starting with, Back home on the ranch --
A: Yeah. Here are the figures for the Warren Publishing Company.
MR COX: Okay.
BY MR COOK: So, obviously, in writing Danse Macabre, you reviewed this?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And if you'll hand it back to me real quick. Now, this has been a long time ago, as you just testified to. At that point in time, in order to review this, you would have had to obtain a copy of it; right?
A: Yes.
Q: I mean, it wasn't like today --
A: Well, I would think so, yes.
Q: I mean, maybe the internet existed then, maybe it doesn't, but you would have had to get a copy to review it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And do you remember getting a copy of it?
A: No.
Q: Okay. When you got the copy, would you have read it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: Probably.
Q: Okay. And I want you to look on what is the inside cover. I don't think it has a page number. But it lists as consulting editor, Bill Dubay.
A: Yes.
Q: And is that something that you would have looked at at that point in time --
A: No.
Q: -- that opening page --
A: No.

Q: -- to see who is involved in Warren comics at that point?
A: No. No. If I looked at anything, I looked to see who had written the story and who had illustrated the story. But, again, these are not artists that I recognize.
Q: And so when you're writing Danse Macabre, certainly you had to be aware of this survey?
A: Yes.
Q: How did you become aware that the survey existed in Creepy 100?
A: No idea.
Q: Do you think you would have obtained it when it came out in August of '78?
A: No idea.
Q: And I know I already asked you this question, so I apologize. But the time period that you started and then finished Danse Macabre, what time period did you start Danse Macabre?
A: Maybe 1979. Just a guess.
Q: Okay.
A: Educated guess.
Q: I understand. Well, that's what I was getting to. It was published in '81, but it was something that took some time. Let me rephrase that question.
Do you think you started writing it before 1981? It was --
A: Yes.
Q: -- published in '81. Sorry to interrupt. All right. Okay.
THE WITNESS: Can I say something in regard to this?
MR COX: If you want to, go right ahead.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I may well have sought out Creepy again as a part of my research for the book. I did a lot of research for Danse Macabre. So I may have sought it out. I may have found out about the survey and found a copy of it, although it wasn't the sort of thing they had on microfilm at the time.
BY MR COOK: And when you say you did a lot of research for Danse Macabre, I just want to bring to your attention -- I know it's been a long time -- in the beginning of the book it says, Fore note to the original edition. It says, "This book is in your hands as the result of a telephone call made to me in November of 1978. I was, at that time, teaching creative writing and a couple of literature courses at the University of Maine in Orono and working, whatever spare time I could find, on the final draft of a novel Firestarter." So and you can read this. This is just to kind of refresh your recollection. So it appears that you say it started --
MR COX: Give him time to read --
MR COOK: Oh, sure.
MR COX: -- before you begin to ask your question.
MR COOK: I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: Right. What's your question?
BY MR COOK: Yeah. My question is: according to that, you got a phone call in 1978. Does that refresh your recollection? Did you start writing it in 1978?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Okay. So you got the phone call. And then where did it go from there?
A: I got the phone call about -- let me put it this way.
Q: Sure.
A: That is a request that ordinarily I would have passed on that. But the request came from Bill Thompson, who published my original books. I had a great debt of gratitude to Bill. And Bill was fired from Doubleday, where those early books were published, and he went to a small house called Evers House, and he was looking for material that would actually, you know, put some pop into the list, the front list of his books. And so he asked me if I had ever thought about writing a book about horror, a nonfiction analysis of various aspects of it, popular culture, all that.
And I said, You know what? I might write a book like that based on -- I was teaching a class at the University of Maine called Horror and the Supernatural.  And I thought to myself, I could actually write this book based on my notes for the various lectures that I was giving in that class. And Danse Macabre was the result.
Now that my recollection has been refreshed, I got that call in November of 1978, and I seem to remember writing that in the house in Orrington, where my wife and I lived while I was teaching at the University of Maine.
So my guess is that the work, it's good guess. You know, would I stake the life of my wife, children, and dog on it? I would not. But my recollection is that I started it in the spring of 1979, because that would have been the spring semester when I was no longer teaching that particular course. I don't think I was. But, in any case, that was it.
Q: Now, you mentioned that you were teaching, at the University of Maine, Horror and the Supernatural. Would -- in that coursework, would that have included teaching on the -- what I'll call the horror comics as a genre?
A: I'm sure we touched on those courses. But what I remember mostly is that we read Dracula, we read Frankenstein, we read Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. We hit all the heavies at that time.
We also had a movie, you know, course. There was a weekly movie. I remember we showed the original Invasion of the Body Snatchers. We showed different films as part of the course.
And, as far as using the comics, in some of the lectures that I gave, I must have touched on the ECs. I probably didn't touch on the Creepies or the Eeries at that time because they were too new. It didn't have anything to do with what I thought about the quality of those mags.
In the early days, Creepy and Eerie were doing great stuff. But the thing about the comics was you couldn't get them to give out as class material. So I would have mentioned them, I'm sure I mentioned them because they were part of, you know, my pantheon. And I probably mentioned Famous Monsters of Filmland too.
Q: When you say you're sure you mentioned them, are you say -- are you saying you're sure you mentioned Eerie and Creepy?
A: No. I'm saying I probably did not mention Eerie and Creepy, if it makes any difference. What I would have talked about were the ECs and the Comics Code that resulted and there was a book that was published called The Corruption of the Innocence, or something like that, that was influential in getting the Comics Code instituted.
Q: And how long did you teach this class at the University of Maine?
A: I don't remember if it was a two-semester class or a one-semester class. My memory is that I taught it in the fall of 1978. I might have taught it
both semesters. I might have taught it to a different group of people, but I don't recall.
Q: And when you say "semesters," is that -- so, like, there will be one semester starting in August or September and ending in, you know, December type frame; is that what you mean by semester?
A: That's correct, yeah.
Q: And then there would be a second semester -- some schools have semesters, which is basically two sets. You know, you got your fall semester and then your spring semester and then you're off for the summer, and then other schools from trimesters.
What I'm getting to is this would have been -- you said, I may have taught it to two different groups of students. Would that have been you taught the class again in 1979?
A: I'm pretty sure that I never taught it to two groups of students.
Q: Okay. Okay. Besides that class, did you teach any other classes at University of Maine?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Tell me when you first started teaching classes at University of Maine.
A: It's a long time ago.
Q: Okay.
A: My memory is -- there's got to be records about this that are probably more sure than my memory.
But my memory is that I taught at the University of Maine from September of 1978 until May or June of 1979. That would be a fall semester and a spring semester. Don't throw the court police on me if I'm off by a year, but I think that was the year.
Q: To the best of your recollection, did you just teach the one fall semester of 1978?
A: No. I taught both semesters.
Q: So that would have been fall of '78 and spring of '79?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Is that the only two terms that you taught at the University of Maine?
A: Yes.
Q: Besides teaching at the University of Maine, and I think you told me that you taught at a school --
MR SILVER: Hampden Academy.
MR COOK: Thank you.
MR SILVER: You're welcome.
BY MR COOK: And that was in 1971?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Yes?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So, besides teaching there and teaching at the University of Maine, did you teach anywhere else?
A: No.
Q: Okay. How is it that you became to teach a class at the University of Maine in the fall of 1978?
A: I had a teacher, a mentor, named Burton Hatlen, who asked me if I would be interested in teaching classes on horror and fantasy and if I would also be interested in teaching writing classes, which I did.
Q: And he was associated with the University of Maine?
A: Yes. He was an assistant professor.
Q: I see.
Okay. I want to go back to the survey that's in Creepy 100. And I'll show it to you, but I'm looking at the bottom right-hand corner where it says, "Meanwhile, back at the ranch," and it lists some figures. Yeah. It says, "Meanwhile, back at the ranch" And, in particular, what I want to ask you about is, it says, Here are the figures for Warren Publishing Creepy, 96,085, that was 1974, and 91,762, I think it says, in the year of 1977. Eerie, 90,595 in 1974, and 93,000 in 1977 -- I'm sorry 93,279 in the year 1977.
So, referencing this survey that you wrote about in Danse Macabre, would you agree with me that Eerie was the most popular Warren comic?
MR COX: Objection. Argumentative. No proper foundation.
BY MR COOK: Based upon the information in this article, would you agree with me that Eerie was the most popular comic in 1977 of the Warren Publishing, as referenced in the --
MR COX: The 2 percent difference, is that what you're referring to?
MR COX: 2 percent.
MR COOK: I mean, I don't know the exact percentage, but ....
MR DUBAY: I think it's more like 3 percent.
MR COX: All right. 3 percent.
MR DUBAY: There was another issue --
MR COOK: You're not allowed to --
BY MR COOK: And you have said that you read the market?
A: Yes.
Q: And so if you read the market, and Eerie is the most popular Warren publishing comic in 1977, would you agree that you most likely read Eerie in 1977?
MR COX: Objection. Foundation. Argumentative.
BY MR COOK: Let's go back --
A: The comics were not my market.
Q: Okay. What was your market?
A: And --
Q: Go ahead.
A: I was a fiction writer.
Q: So in the 1977 year, you don't consider the comics to be part of the market that you were writing in?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. We got kind of sidetracked -- I went back over my notes -- in regards to this question of access to Eerie in 1977. We've kind of covered some material since then. Do you agree with me that you had access to Eerie in 1977?
MR COX: Objection. Vague and ambiguous.
THE WITNESS: I don't know. I don't know. Let's leave it at that. I don't know.
BY MR COOK: Well, in 1977, if you wanted to go buy a copy of Eerie, you could have done it?
A: No. To the best of my recollection, it wasn't carried. We were living in Bridgton at that time. There was a drugstore that carried a small selection of magazines. But if I wanted to buy from a wider selection, I would have had to have traveled 26,  28 miles to Lewiston to Victor News or to the bookstore that was there at that time.
So, really, in order to put this in perspective, you'd have to get circulation figures from magazines that were of general interest, anything from Good Housekeeping to Red Book to Cosmopolitan to Popular Mechanics to Argosy to any of the things that were published at that time.
All I know is that Creepy and Eerie, so far as I knew, there was only one place that I ever bought those magazines, and that was in Brunswick and that was when I was much younger.
Q: And so your testimony is that the town that you were living in in 1977, there was not a store that sold Eerie or Creepy?
A: That's correct.
Q: And if you wanted to get Eerie or Creepy, you would have had to go to, I think you said, Lewiston?
A: Lewiston.
Q: Lewiston.
A: Yes.
Q: Which is about 25 to 30 miles from where you lived?
A: Yeah, I think so.
Q: Ballpark?
A: About that, yeah.
Q: And you mentioned a bookstore, Victor News?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you go to Victor News in 1977?
A: From time to time, yes.
Q: And then you mentioned a bookstore, and I get the impression that's separate from Victor News?
A: Yes.
Q: And the bookstore you're referencing was also in Lewiston?
A: Yes.
Q: And so what you're saying is if you wanted to buy a copy of Eerie in 1977, you would have had to go to Lewiston to either Victor News or the bookstore?
A: Yes. You'd have to go to someplace where there was a major dealer in books and periodicals.
Q: And that's what Victor News was?
A: Yeah.
Q: So you could have went in 1977, I'm not saying you did, but nothing prevented you from going to Victor News and buying a copy of Eerie?
A: Yes, that's true.
Q: Okay. We talked about when you started writing The Gunslinger for Fantasy & Science Fiction, and you said that you started writing it in 1970. I'm paraphrasing. You started --
MR COX: He didn't say that he started writing it for Fantasy & Science Fiction in 1970. You're conflating two things.
MR COOK: Thank you.
BY MR COOK: You started writing The Gunslinger in 1970 on the green paper --
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: -- and at some point --
A: Yes.
Q: -- you picked it back up to continue writing it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When was that?
A: Can I look at something?
Q: Absolutely. And I was about to say if you think there's a document or a book that we have here that you could use as a resource, you know, you're free to ask me for anything that we have.
A: 1984.
MR COX: 1984.
MR COX: So you didn't do anything between 1970 and -- 14 years?
THE WITNESS: No. Well, what I did was I rewrote the stories for Fantasy & Science Fiction, but the project -- I don't know if you really want to hear this.
MR COOK: Sure.
THE WITNESS: The project was dead in the water. And Doubleday, in order to fulfill a contractual obligation, I had to give Doubleday a book, and the book that I had was called Pet Cemetery, and that was published in 1983. And they wanted to publish what they call an ad card in the front of that book, and an ad card is all the books that you publish, you know, also by so and so.
And, in the course of that ad card, I listed The Dark Tower because the Grant edition had been published by then, so that went in the ad card.
And then people started to say, I can't get this book, I decided, all right, they want to read the book. New American Library agreed to publish The Dark Tower as a paperback. And once that happened, then people wanted the rest of the story. So I went back, it may have been 1985 before I got going again.
MR COOK: Okay. I think there's some confusion so let me see if I can --
MR COX: He wasn't asking about the second book, he was asking about when you were working on the first book after --
THE WITNESS: What were you asking me?
BY MR COOK: Yeah, let me clarify some things and allow you to clarify your answer. I'll give you some foreshadowing. What I'm going to ask you is basically starting with when you started writing The Gunslinger and when you picked it back up and finished it. And just hold on because you'll get some context. And then I'm going to ask you when you started writing The Way Station.
A: Oh, is that what you want to know?
Q: Yes, sir. I'm sorry. You were obviously confused. And then I'm going to ask the same thing for The Oracle, Slow Mutants, The Gunslinger and the Dark Man.
A: Okay. Let's --
Q: Let's redo this. And I don't think my question was clear. So --
A: No, it wasn't.
Q: Right. So, to start with, you've testified that you started writing what we'll call the chapter of The Gunslinger in 1970.
A: Right.
Q: And then at some point --
A: Yes.
Q: -- you picked up that chapter, The Gunslinger, and --
MR COX: I think --
MR COOK: -- picked it back up.
MR COX: -- he's testified that he wrote the first chapter. He didn't say he didn't write other chapters in 1970. So I think that's the --
MR COOK: Well, and that's what I'm trying to figure out.
MR COX: Okay.
MR COOK: That's exactly where I'm getting to is --
BY MR COOK: So when you -- I don't -- for purposes of this line of questioning, when I'm referring to The Gunslinger, I'm referring to the first chapter of the --
MR COX: The book titled The Gunslinger?
MR COOK: -- of the book titled The Gunslinger, which is comprised in five parts and --
THE WITNESS: What's part one called? Isn't it called The Gunslinger?
MR COX: It's called The Gunslinger, yes.
MR COOK: Yes, sir. And that's what I'm referring to.
THE WITNESS: You want to know when I wrote that, is that the question?
THE WITNESS: The answer is: March or April of 1970.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So let's go to the second question. When did you right The Way Station?
A: March or April of 1970.
Q: Okay. And The Oracle?
A: Probably March, April or May of 1970.
Q: Okay. The Slow Mutants?
A: March, April or May of 1970.
Q: And then The Gunslinger and the Dark Man?
A: March, April, May or possibly June of 1970. For that matter, it may have actually been later that summer. I can't say for sure.
Q: Let's just say in 1970. Would that be accurate?
A: Yes.
Q: I don't necessarily need the month. So you wrote the five chapters that we just went over, The Gunslinger, The Way Station, The Oracle, The Slow Mutants, and The Gunslinger and the Dark Man in 1970?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And at some point in time you went back and added some parts to it; is that correct?
A: No.
Q: Didn't you go back and add the part about the boy Jake?
A: You may be conflating -- I'm not even going to guess. I don't know how to answer your question.
Q: Okay. Let's take the five Fantasy & Science Fiction. Yeah. Here we go. Thank you. Okay. This is four of them, but I'm referring to all five of the chapters, The Gunslinger, that – as they were published in Fantasy & Science Fiction.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Okay. My question was: When you wrote each of these chapters -- and my understanding of your answer is you wrote each of these in 1970?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And then they were published in 1978, I think was the first one?
MR DUBAY: October 1978.
MR COOK: Thank you.
BY MR COOK: October 1978 the first one was published. What changes did you make, if any, to the first chapter of The Gunslinger that was published in 1978 from the original work that you wrote in 1970?
MR COX: Word changes or structural changes? Just so we understand the question.
BY MR COOK: Well, let's start with this: Were there any changes.
A: Of course.
Q: Okay.
A: It was a rewrite.
Q: Okay. It was a rewrite. So tell me what do you mean by "it was a rewrite"?
A: I mean that I would have taken pages – first off, I can't remember if I took those original green pages and rewrote them before there was a sale in the offering. I can't remember that.
But once there was a sale in the offering, I would have typed it up in a style that could have been submitted; in other words, typed, double-spaced, legible, one side of the paper. And, in the course of doing that, I always make changes. Usually they're changes for the purposes of continuity, clarity, misspellings, anything like that.
But if you ask me to recall specifically, I can't. All I can tell you is that the thrust of the five chapters is exactly the same from the 1970 version to the published versions. The only changes would be minor ones.
Q: Okay. And that -- that's what I'm getting to is the published versions that was published in Fantasy -- excuse me -- & Science Fiction were essentially the same as what you typed in 1970?
A: They would be essentially the same.
Q: You mean maybe some typos fixed, some descriptions modified, or no?
A: Possibly.
Q: Were there any new -- I'm going to use the term scenes created from the 1970 work to the published versions as published in Fantasy & Science Fiction starting in 1978?
A: Not to my recollection. But, in order to answer your question in an informed fashion, I would have to compare, let us say, Denise May's manuscript, the retyping, and some of the earlier drafts of mine that are on file at the Fogler Library to the published in the Fantasy & Science Fiction to say for sure. But, to my best recollection, there were no major changes. I'm not a person who usually does that unless I'm forced.
Q: So in some subsequent editions of The Gunslinger, you did make some changes, I believe, and I'm going to give you some examples. In the –
MR COX: 2003 edition?
MR COOK: Yeah, I believe so.
MR COX: Okay.
MR COOK: Just a second I'm trying to remember the girl's name. I want to say it's Allie.
MR DUBAY: Allie.
MR COOK: Alice.
THE WITNESS: Allie, the girl at the window?
BY MR COOK: Well, there was the barmaid. There was a change that, in the original work, The Gunslinger shoots her, and I'm using descriptions that you may not agree with, but in a cold-hearted manner, and there was a change in the revised edition that Allie begs The Gunslinger to shoot her.
A: Is that a question?
Q: I'm saying is that true? Did that happen?
A: I can't remember if that change was made or not.
Q: Okay. Do you remember any changes that were made, you know, besides minor typos and that sort of thing, any --
A: Between -- are you asking do I remember changes made between the -- either -- are we asking about -- let's clarify one thing.
Q: Both.
A: Are we talking about the 2003 edition, changes made to that?
Q: Well, I was --
A: Be clear.
Q: Let's start there, yes. Let's start with what changes were made in the 2003 edition from the 19 -- what we'll call 19 --
A: From the Grant edition?
MR COX: From the Grant edition, which was 1982.
MR COOK: Okay. Yes.
THE WITNESS: The one that I remember clearly is that I gave Roland a horn in the 2003 version, the Horn of Eld. You've got one of the interviews where I said that, essentially, all these books were done without any editorial input whatsoever, which means that, in my mind, they were all first drafts of one long novel, and there are a lot of mistakes in there that are like continuity mistakes. When Detta loses her leg, she's pushed from a subway station platform, there is no platform there. Okay? I wasn't a New York kid, so I didn't know that. So that's something, if I went on to rewrite the second volume, The Drawing of the Three, I would certainly fix that.
But, in regard to what we're talking about here with changes, by the end of the seventh volume, Roland's horn has become extremely important because it's important to the poem, the Robert Browning poem, Roland raised his horn and blew.
So I had to put the horn at the beginning of the first volume, where it always belonged, because there's this famous dictum; if there's a gun on the mantle piece in act one, it better go off in act three.
Well, I had a situation where the gun went off in act three, but it wasn't in act one. So I had to go back and put it in. And the other changes that I made were of that nature, and some of them were to make the prose more felicitous.
Q: What does felicitous mean?
A: It means smoother, make it smoothed out. You have to remember that The Gunslinger was written by a young man who was 23 years old who had just finished his college education, and a lot of the language was consciously high-flown and highfalutin. And my style evolved a lot since then. And I didn't change everything in that first volume, but what I tried to do was to modify the language and make it more accessible, if you will. And probably that's more than I should have said, but that's the case.
Q: Okay. Thank you for the explanation.
When did you start writing The Drawing of Three? Sorry.
A: To the best of my recollection, around 1985, possibly 1986. I don't remember when it was published.
Q: Do you recall approximately how long it took you to write The Drawing of the Three?
A: Three or four months, I think.
Q: Okay. I'm just saying we can kind of work backwards from the publication date to get a general idea.
A: What was the publication date?
Q: The Drawing of the Three, I think it was '8---
MR DUBAY: '87. Yeah. It was right – right when the mass market was released. '87.
MR COOK: Okay.
THE WITNESS: All I know is that it was after Pet Cemetery because that's when -- well, it was after the publication -- the paperback publication of The Dark Tower.
BY MR COOK: Well, you mentioned the poem as part of the inspiration, if you will, for The Dark Tower series. Did you also use C. S. Lewis's work as an inspiration for The Dark Tower series?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Had you read C. S. Lewis's work – and I think it's called -- what's it called?
MR DUBAY: The Dark Tower.
BY MR COOK: -- The Dark Tower? Thank you.
A: No.
Q: You've never read it?
A: No. There are books by him about -- is it Narnia?
Q: Yes.
A: I read the first one of those and just – that was it for me.
Q: Didn't do it for you?
A: No.
Q: I understand. Okay. I'm kind of -- we're kind of jumping around a little bit because this is part of the concept of moving quicker. Referring to The Essential J. R. R. Tolkien Source Book: A Fan's Guide to Middle-Earth and Beyond by George Beahm, and there is an interview of Whelan in here, and I'll read it and then I'll give it to you and your lawyer to review.
Whelan says, "I'm aiming to please myself on these" -- you can read it to put it into context, but .... "I have pretty specific ideas of how Oy, the bumbler should look, and the other characters, and I'm doing everything I can to stay as true to that as I can. I sent King a digital photograph of one of the paintings that has the whole quintet in it, and he said that I nailed it, Oy, so I feel good about that. Oy is in three of the paintings."
And I'll hand that to you and you can read it, and then I'm going to ask you a question.
A: Yeah. All right. Okay.
Q: My question is: Do you remember receiving that digital pho --
A: I do.
Q: Okay. And you told him that he nailed it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay.
A: I'm assuming that it's the one of all of them together. It's called A Group Hug. I don't remember Oy being in that painting specifically. But, unless I'm mistaken about the one he's talking about.
Q: Okay.
A: I bought that -- well, not that it matters. I bought that painting from him, if it's the one we're talking about.
Q: When -- when did you write The Stand?
A: I think 1978. That's my recollection, 1978.
Q: Okay. I want to bring your attention to page 223, which is the afterword to -- in the afterword of the -- this is the 19 --
MR DUBAY: Copyrighted in '82 --
MR COOK: '82.
MR DUBAY: -- but this is the mass market release.
BY MR COOK: Okay. This is the mass market release that then came out in '87. So this is page 223 of the afterword to the 1987 version of The Gunslinger. Do you want me to read the section I'm talking about? Okay. And so in here it says, "In fact, the only time when my thoughts did not turn at least occasionally to The Gunslinger's dry and yet somehow gorgeous world (at least it has always seemed gorgeous to me) was when I was inhabiting another that seemed every bit as real -- the post-apocalypse world of The Stand. The final segment presented here 'The Gunslinger and the Man in Black' was written less than 18 months ago in western Maine."
So if The Stand was written in, I think you said, 1978 --
A: Yes, I did.
Q: -- and, in this afterword, you say The Gunslinger and The Man in Black was written less than 18 months ago in western Maine, that would be, like, 1976-ish?
A: No. It would be later than that, but that's not right because the whole thing was written -- unless it's talking about a redraft of that.
Q: Well, that's what I'm going to ask you about is earlier I believe your testimony is that you wrote The Gunslinger and The Man in Black in 1970?
A: Yes.
Q: And, you wrote this afterword; correct?
A: I did write the afterword.
Q: Okay. So, in this afterword, you say The Gunslinger and The Man in Black was written less than 18 months ago. And based upon the references to The Stand and The Shining, that couldn't have been in 1970; correct?
A: But it was all written in 1970. I don't know why I wrote that there, but I remember very clearly writing the end of that in 1970. So it did exist, at least in first draft, in 1970.
Q: Okay. So what your testimony is that what's written in the afterword here is incorrect?
A: It may have been -- can I see the Fantasy & Science Fiction --
Q: Sure.
A: -- magazines again?
Q: Yeah. Which one do you need?
A: The last one.
MR COOK: Where is the fifth one?
MR DUBAY: I believe the fifth one is under his book right there.
THE WITNESS: No. This is The Oracle and the Mountains.
MR DUBAY: Under the books. You're looking for the first one, Mr. King? It's probably under the binder.
THE WITNESS: Is it under here?
MR DUBAY: It's right there.
MR COOK: Yeah, it is. It's under that Monsters magazine. There we go.
THE WITNESS: Unless I was referring to the redraft that actually wound up here -- this is 1978. That isn't the one I want. It's somewhere else.
MR COX: What's the pending question?
THE WITNESS: I think it's this one.
MR COOK: Well, the pending question was: He testified that he wrote The Gunslinger and The Man in Black in 1970, and the afterword of the 19 --
MR DUBAY: '82.
MR COOK: -- 82 edition states that he wrote that less than 18 months ago, which would have put it in, like, 1978.
THE WITNESS: I took a break from The Stand to get the last part ready for publication. Must have. That's all I can think of. I can't explain the contradiction.
MR COOK: Okay.
THE WITNESS: All those things happened a long time ago. And when I told you I wrote The Stand in 1978, I was incorrect. The Stand was published in 1978 or '79. It was written in 1975. That's when I worked on The Stand. And so that clarifies the afterword there.
We have the journal entries from '75 where it's all The Stand, The Stand, The Stand, and The Shining. So I goofed.
BY MR COOK: Okay. And when did you write The Shining?
A: That was before The Stand. It was written in Colorado, so I'm thinking that that was written in 1974.
Q: Okay. So, even presuming it was written in 1974, that still doesn't explain the discrepancy between what's in the afterword and your testimony that you wrote The Gunslinger and The Man in Black in 1970. Because 1974, even if we go back 18 months and call it 1972, it's still a two-year gap; correct?
A: Maybe I was -- I must have been talking about a rewrite or a polish on it because the whole thing was written in 1970.
Q: Okay. Back to the afterword. I'm referencing page 221. I'll read it, and then I'll show it to you and your lawyer.
"I was, at the time, living in a scuzzy riverside cabin not far from the university, and I was living all by myself. The first third of the foregoing
tale was written in a ghastly unbroken silence, which I now, with a houseful of rioting children, two secretaries, and a housekeeper, who always thinks I look ill, find hard to remember."
So you say here that the first third of the foregoing tale, and this is the afterword to what comprises all five chapters of The Gunslinger, was written when you were living all by yourself --
A: Right.
Q: -- in a scuzzy riverside cabin --

A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- not far from the university. And that would have been the University of Maine?
A: Right. Yes.
Q: And that would have been 1970?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And so you say the first third of the tale?
A: Yes.
Q: And so if the first third was written when you were in the apartment --
A: No. That was a cabin.
Q: The cabin. I'm sorry. In a scuzzy riverside cabin not far from the university. Then when did you write the remaining two-thirds of it?
A: That would have been at 110 North Main Street in Orono where I moved after Dave Lyons' time was up in the cabin.
Q: And what year would you have moved to Lyons Street?
A: I'm sorry?
MR COX: North Main Street.
MR COOK: I'm sorry. I misheard.
MR COX: North Main Street, Dave Lyons's cabin.
MR COOK: Oh, okay. Thank you.
BY MR COOK: In what year would you have moved to –
A: I moved from the Springer Cabins to 110 North Main, where I lived previously, and then I went back home to Durham, Maine, where I grew up, and that's where I would have finished it. In other words, I wrote at the Springer Cabins, I wrote at 110 North Main, and then I wrote in Durham.
Q: And when you say, "I wrote," we're referring to the first five chapters of The Gunslinger?
A: Yeah.
Q: And it's your testimony that that all occurred in 1970?
A: Yes.
Q: And so, again, my question is: You say you wrote the first third at the cabin. Do you know where you wrote the second two-thirds, if you will?
A: Both places. I can't remember. I just picked up my stuff and moved from place to place. When I went from the Springer Cabins to 110, where I lived part of my senior year, I moved everything in two paper bags -- that was my luggage -- and a lot of that stuff was manuscript, The Dark Tower manuscript.
Q: Okay. Okay. And so when you're writing this afterword and you say – you say -- just going to pick up where I left off. You say, "Which I now, with a houseful of rioting children, two secretaries, and a housekeeper, who always thinks I look ill, find hard to remember."
What time period is that where you say, "Which I now, with a houseful of rioting children, two" --
A: What's the date at the end of the afterword?
MR DUBAY: Copyright's 1982. Excuse me.
MR COOK: The copyright of the book is 1982.
THE WITNESS: Is there a date at the end of the afterword?
MR COOK: I do not see a date. It just says Stephen King, Bangor, Maine.
THE WITNESS: Okay. So --
MR COX: Right.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, that would have been 1980 or 1981, around the time that the book was published.
BY MR COOK: Is when you would have written the afterword?
A: Yeah. We were no longer living in Orrington, so ....
Q: Okay. I guess that's the question is: When did you have two secretaries and a housekeeper, if you did? I mean, that's what you write in this afterword, "now with two secretaries and a housekeeper." When was that?
A: Well, I remember the housekeeper and I remember one secretary. I don't remember two. I'm going to say 1981.
Q: And --
A: Again --
Q: Okay.
A: My recollection isn't entirely clear.
Q: I understand it's been awhile.
A: 40 years.
Q: Did anyone assist you or contribute to writing -- let me rephrase that -- creating The Gunslinger? And when I'm talking about The Gunslinger, I'm talking about the original first five chapters.
A: No.
Q: And if I remember your testimony from earlier, in 1970, when you wrote the first five chapters, you were discussing it in months, and I think you said that you wrote the entirety of it in the year of 1970?
A: That would be my best recollection.
Q: Yes.
And do you know approximately how long it took from the time you started in 1970 until the time you finished in 1970?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Who, if anyone, would be a witness that saw you working on The Gunslinger in 1970? And I can help you out a little bit with that. For example, were you living with anyone?
A: No.
Q: You were living alone?
A: Uh-huh.
Q: You weren't, obviously, married at the time. Had you already met your wife?
A: Yes.
Q: Tabitha, is it?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Would she frequently come to your house? You were in a cabin, and then you went to another place. Would she frequently come to wherever you were living in 1970 when you were writing the first five chapters of The Gunslinger?
A: I don't recall her ever coming to the Springer Cabins. I remember her visiting at 110 North Main, and I know that I visited her. She lived in a little trailer up by Wadley store in Stillwater, but I don't think she was ever at the cabin.
Q: Did you --
A: If you mean did she ever look over my shoulder while I was writing, I don't do that.
Q: What do you mean? Excuse me. What do you mean you don't do that?
A: I mean that I usually am by myself when I work.
Q: Did you tell Tabitha what you were writing in 1970?
A: I don't recall.
Q: When you're writing a particular work -- and this is a pretty general question -- but do you typically discuss what you're actively writing with other people or do you work on it in a vacuum, if you will, until the first version, we'll say, is completed?
A: I don't talk about it a lot. There's a character in Salem's Lot, a writer named Ben Mears, who says when you talk about your writing, it's like pissing it out on the ground, and I've always subscribed to that. I have shown works in progress to people. I can't remember if I showed works in progress to anybody at that time. I know that I discussed The Dark Tower and the relationship to the Browning poem with Burt Hatlen, who I mentioned is my mentor, but he passed away some years ago.
Q: Do you remember anyone else that you discussed The Gunslinger with while you were writing it in 1970?
A: No.
Q: Would it be an accurate statement to say that you may have or you may not have, you just don't recall because it's been a long time?
A: I don't remember talking about it with people. I may have done, but I don't remember.
Q: Okay.
A: That's almost 50 years ago.
Q: Right. And so, in writing The Gunslinger, the first five chapters, you mentioned the poem. What were the other sources for the ideas that you relied upon in creating The Gunslinger in 1970?
A: Well, I was very interested in archetypes, and I had seen the spaghetti westerns with Clint Eastwood as The Man with No Name, and I thought to myself, That's a good template for the kind of character I want to write about, a loner, classic -- a classic western hero, not much different from Shane in the 1950s and 1960s.
That and the Browning poem, Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came, were the major influences involved with writing it.
I was also in love with long fantasy at that time. So I loved the Lord of the Rings books. I loved the ambition of those books and the way that they spread over multiple volumes, and I felt the same way about the Mervyn Peake trilogy about Gormenghast.  So I was aware that fantasy was a place where you could actually -- you know, your ambitions could be large and you could write -- I wanted to write an epic, basically. And so those two things were, let's say, encouraging signposts.
Q: Okay. So -- and you've listed off several things here. I'm not going to list them all back off. Were there any other influences that you associate as inspiring The Gunslinger, the first five chapters?
A: I think maybe Clifford D. Simak, science fiction writer who wrote a book called Ring Around the Sun, which was about multiple earths, and that might have been a factor in conceptualizing the tower as a kind of axle where all these various earths kind of swung around them. I mean, multiple worlds and multiple universes are a staple of fiction, but I love the idea of multiple earths.
Q: Is alternative time or time travel an element of the first five chapters of The Gunslinger?
A: Not really. There are these doors that The Gunslinger goes through, and he always lands in New York, and he lands in three specific decades of New York, the 1960s, the 1970s, and the 1980s.
So I was interested in the idea of drawing people from different periods of America. But time travel itself didn't interest me much.
Q: And is this in the -- I'm specifically referring to the first five chapters.
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: Okay. So in the first five chapters you're saying that he goes to New York in 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s?
A: No. He doesn't do any of those things in the first five chapters.
Q: Okay. That's what I thought. That's why --
A: But --
Q: -- why I was confused.
A: What does happen in the first five chapters is that he meets a time traveler from, I think it's the 1970s, I'm not sure. But he meets a boy named Jake, Jake Chambers, who has memories of department stores in New York. His memory is sketchy, but he remembers department stores in New York, and he remembers his father who smokes Pall Malls and works for the network. So very clearly it's an alternate earth, and that was sort of what turned my dials.
Q: Well, and that's what I'm trying to get, the distinction between time travel and alternate earths. And Jake, obviously, is from a different time.
Well, that's kind of a question. Is Jake from a different time or is Jake from an alternative earth or is he from an alternative earth in a different
time or something else?
A: He's from an alternative earth.
Q: In -- but at the same time, same temporal --
A: There's no time in mid-world. There's no sense that there's anything except that it's a version of the earth that's moved on. There are relics and there are artifacts of some other civilization that lived there.
But, no, I couldn't say really that the concept of time travel ever interested me very much.
Q: So, with the exception of Jake, obviously, was a time -- well, are you saying that Jake was a time traveler or are you saying that Jake was from an alternative world?
A: No. Jake winds up in Roland's world because he's killed.
Q: Right.
A: He moves from one world to the other. He's hit by a car, and he winds up in Roland's world. There's no time travel involved. He just sort of moves
from one world to the other.
Q: So when you were writing the first five chapters, did you envision time travel as an eventual -- was the concept of time travel part of your -- hold on. Let me ask a better question. So when you wrote The Gunslinger, the first five chapters, did you have a belief that it was the
beginning of a longer story?
A: Oh, yes.
Q: Okay. That's what I'm getting to. Yes, okay.
And so that longer story, when you wrote the first five chapters for The Gunslinger, did you have the whole story laid out in your head already or was it something that developed as you went into The Drawing of the Three, et cetera, et cetera?
A: I had one page where I had written down that there were going to be seven books in the series, and what I remember most was I can't remember where I wrote that one-page thing that had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven. The only thing I clearly remember is that it was a typewriter that had all capitals. It was like a stenographer's thing or something. When you started a sentence, when you pushed the shift key, you got a bigger capital, but they were all capitals. And I had that one page.
And by the time that I moved from the Springer Cabins to 110 or when I went from 110 to home, I lost that page entirely. So I had no outline at all. I can't remember exactly what I wrote.
Q: So this one page is something you would have written in 1970?
A: Yeah.
Q: I see. Were the original five chapters that you wrote in 1970, were those typed with the same all-caps typewriter?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Well, where was the all-caps typewriter? That's kind of a unique thing.
A: I don't know. I can't remember.
Q: Okay. So you were somewhere other than your house, presumably, when you wrote this one page all caps because you were using an all-caps typewriter?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. All right, just so I understand. Are you aware that some – some people -- and we can print out the web pages; we have them -- have -- some members of -- of the public have claimed that The Dark Tower and Roland Deschain is very similar to Restin Dane?
A: No.
Q: You're not aware of that?
A: No. The only one in my experience that ever said that is the plaintiff.
Q: And how familiar are you with your website StephenKing.com?
A: Not very.
Q: Did you ever go onto the website?
A: No.
Q: Let me ask that question clearly. Have you ever been onto the website?
A: Yes.
Q: Rarely?
A: Rarely.
Q: Who administers the website for you?
A: Marsha DeFilippo.
Q: Is that the same person that has administered the website from the time you created it?
A: Yes.
Q: And what's her last name, DeFilippo?
A: DeFilippo.
MR COX: D-e-F-i-l-i-p-p-o.
MR COOK: Thank you. I was about to ask.
BY MR COOK: So, prior to this lawsuit, is it your testimony that you had no knowledge that anyone was claiming that Roland Deschain was very similar to Restin Dane?
MR COX: Other than the plaintiff? Excluding the plaintiff you mean?
MR COOK: Well --
MR COX: The plaintiff had claim letters before the lawsuit, Rob, that's what I'm speaking of.
MR COOK: Absolutely.
BY MR COOK: So, excluding the plaintiff, let's go back and talk about that. You -- did you receive a letter from the plaintiff regarding that this claim that Restin Dane and Roland Deschain --
A: Yes.
Q: -- are very similar?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Upon receipt of that letter, was that the first time that you had been made aware that anyone was making this claim?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. And what did you do besides contact in regards to your lawyer –
A: I didn't do anything initially.
Q: Okay.
A: Because if I --
MR COX: You needn't say why, you just did or didn't.
THE WITNESS: Okay. I didn't do anything.
BY MR COOK: Okay. And you said initially. So, at some point in time, did you make any inquiry into who Restin Dane or The Rook was?
MR COX: And this is other than through counsel?
MR COOK: This is -- yes, all these are.
BY MR COOK: So, to date, have you, by yourself, gone online to see or research Restin Dane at all?
A: No.
Q: And --
A: Let me qualify that by saying I think that I went online once to look at a cover, and I saw a guy who looked like he was traveling in a chess piece.
Q: Okay. And that would have been at least after the notice letter you received from Plaintiff?
A: That's correct.
Q: Okay. And besides going online to look at that cover and besides anything you've discussed with your lawyer, which I don't want to ask you about, do you have any knowledge or belief as to whether or not Restin Dane and Roland Deschain are similar characters?
A: No.
Q: And, no, you don't have any belief or, no, you don't think they're similar?
A: I don't have any knowledge.
Q: So you don't know if they're similar or not?
A: I've never read anything about Restin Dane and I've never read The Rook. So there's no way for me to know whether there are similarities or not.
Q: And I'm going to go back and ask you a question. I think I may have asked earlier, so I apologize for asking it twice. I think you said you've never read the complaint that's filed in this case; is that correct?
A: No.
Q: I asked the question backwards again. I apologize. Let me just ask it one more time for the record. Have you read the complaint that's been filed in this case?
A: No.
Q: We were talking about your website that you said you didn't review, or rarely reviewed, I'm sorry, and I want to show you a copy of a printout of your website, which is Exhibit 89 that's filed in this lawsuit, it's part of Exhibit 89, to the declaration of William Dubay. It's a very --
MR COX: Declaration of Benjamin Dubay.
MR DUBAY: Benjamin.
MR COOK: I'm sorry, Benjamin Dubay. It's at the bottom. It says -- I'll show it to you so you can read it. Philzilla said, "Though you have to admit Roland Deschain and Restin Dane are strangely similar. And is that Susannah Dean and Andy?" I'm going to show this to you so you can read  it. It's pretty small print. It's at the very bottom.
A: Yeah.
MR COX: Is says, "Is that Susannah Dean and Andy?"
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What's the question?
BY MR COOK: Sure. The question is: So this is from StephenKing.com.
A: Yeah.
Q: And there is an entry there from a Philzilla.
MR COX: Philzilla.
MR COOK: Philzilla. Thank you.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: -- that -- and I just read it into the record, but, basically, that Restin Dane and Roland Deschain look strangely similar.
MR COX: No. It says actually, that Andy -- that -- that --
THE WITNESS: It says, Thought (sic) you have to admit that --
MR COX: Susannah Dean and Andy look like --
MR COOK: No. I'm reading the part that Mr. King is reading, "Though you have -- though you have to admit" ....
MR COX: Well, that -- there's a picture -- first of all, there's no proper foundation for this whatsoever as to the authenticity of it, the author of it, anything of the kind.
BY MR COOK: Okay. Do you see the statement I'm talking about from Philzilla?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. So were you made aware at any time, except for from your lawyer, that this person had gone onto your website and made this statement?
MR COX: Objection. No foundation. Assumes facts in dispute. Go ahead.
BY MR COOK: Does it concern you that at least one member of the general public feels that Restin Dane and Roland Deschain are strangely similar?

MR COX: Objection. Assumes a fact in dispute.
BY MR COOK: It does not concern you?
A: No.
Q:. The lady that you mentioned that administers your website, where is she located?
A: (redacted).
Q: Okay. We've got some articles and videos I could certainly pull out and play, but I want to ask you about a personification device that you have spoken about and/or written about, and that is using initials to -- say, sort of a symbolism in your writings. Are you familiar with what I'm talking about?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. Like, so, for example, in The Dark Tower, John Chambers, who -- I think his name is John Chambers. He goes by Jake, but it's John Chambers. Is that -- those initials, J. C., are those -- do you use those initials intentionally?
A: No. That was coincidental.
Q: That was coincidental?
A: (Nods head up and down.)
Q: Okay. Are there any initials in The Dark Tower series that you use, I'm referring to it as a personification device. Okay? You know what I'm talking about; using initials to --
A: You're talking about symbolism, I think.
Q: Yes. Are any of the character -- do any of the characters have initials that were used as symbolism for someone else?
A: No.
Q: Is that technique a technique that you have used in other works; using initials as symbolism for referencing another character or --
A: No.
Q: Okay. What other works have you used it in?
A: The Green Mile.
Q: Okay. And that would have been John Coffey?
A: That's right.
Q: Besides John Coffey in The Green Mile, have you used that symbolism -- I'll call it symbolism technique -- in any other works?
A: Not to my knowledge. Not to my recollection.
Q: What about R. F. for Randall Flagg?
A: Well, Randall Flagg is a character that I started to use in all the books, and I tried to have characters who were him in different guises, and they always had the initials R. F. He has a number of aliases in The Stand; people that he's pretended to be beforehand, and they always have the initials R. F. But they don't stand for anything. They don't have any deeper meaning.
Q: Okay. I follow you. So you just use the initials R. F. as reference to Randall Flagg, and then you use that same personification, if you will, with other names besides Randall Flagg as a reference to Randall Flagg?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. Is there any references to R. F., or Randall Flagg, in The Dark Tower series?
A: There may be. I don't remember.
Q:. In your On Writing book, you reference this signature -- or this symbolization device as a technique.
MR DUBAY: Personification.
MR COOK: Well, we're calling it symbolization or personification device.
BY MR COOK: -- as a tool that you use often. Do you agree with that?
A: I don't understand the question.
Q: Sure. Let me reask it. This use of initials, is this a tool that you often use in your books and writings?
A: I wouldn't say often.
Q: So there's a bunch of R. F. examples; Richard Fry, Robert Franq, Rudin Filaro, Ramsey Forrest, Robert Freemont, Richard Freemantle, Russell Faraday, Richard Fannin, Raymond Fiegler, Revered Flagg -- Reverend (sic) Flagg, Roger Finney, Richard Ferris, and Randall Flagg. Are these all references to Randall Flagg?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. When did you know that The Gunslinger was going to be named Roland?
A: From the beginning.
Q: So when you wrote the first five chapters in 1970 you  named him Roland?
A: No, I didn't name him then, I was holding it back. But the basis was that poem, Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came.
Q: Okay.
A: So I knew.
Q: And what about the last name, Deschain?
A: Is your question where did that name come from?
Q: Yes.
A: Actually, I wanted a name that sounded like a knightly name. I don't mean night, like after the sun goes down, I meant like a knight of the round table or something like that. And, you know, I was thinking about Lancelot and Percival and all those guys.
And I remembered a classmate that I had in high school whose name was Ronald Desjardins, and he was the farthest thing from a gunslinger that you ever saw in your life. He was a roly-poly, cheerful kid. But I loved the name. And I've used that name, Desjardins, in other books. There's a teacher in Carrie whose name is Desjardins. It's a common name where I come from.
But I thought I'll change that a little bit to Deschain, and it sounds like somebody who might come from a long line of knights. And that was sort of my image of who gunslingers were, were knights of the white. So I called him Roland Deschain.
Q: And that was in reference to your -- I'm sorry, did you say college or high school classmate?
A: He was a high school classmate.
Q: So the Roland Deschain is in reference to Ronald --
A: Desjardins.
Q: -- Desjardins?
A: But let me just say that the French translation of that means of the garden, which sounded a little bit too peaceful --
Q: Okay.
A: -- for my guy. So I changed it.
Q: And why did you want Roland Deschain to have a knightly sounding name? Or to -- in your mind it was –
A: I think --
Q: -- of the round table, if you will.
A: I think that's asked and answered. I wanted him to have a name that would call up ideas of somebody who came from noble birth.
Q: Yes, I do have that. But I'm saying, if you know the answer, why did you want this character to have knightly characteristics?
A: Because by the time his last name came up in the books, it was clear that he was a knight, that he was part of a small cadre of peacekeepers and, you know, sort of like the knights of the round table that were supposed to do good, agents of the white they're called in the book.
Q: And so when you wrote the first five chapters in 1970, you already at that time knew his name was going to be Roland. Did you already know at that time it was going to be Deschain?
A: No.
Q: Okay. So when did you arrive at the conclusion that his last name was going to be Deschain?
A: I don't remember. Whenever it came up in one of the books that he had to give a full name.
Q: Okay.
A: When one of the characters recognized him as Roland Deschain of the eld. But I can't remember which book that was or where it was.
Q: Okay. And I think I know the answer to this, but Roland Deschain dresses as a cowboy. Is that inspired from your inspiration of the Clint Eastwood movie, the spaghetti westerns?
A: He --
MR COX: Objections. Assumes facts in dispute. But go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Roland is a gunslinger, and he starts in the desert, and it seemed to me that he would be wearing outdoor western gear.
BY MR COOK: And Roland Deschain arises from -- I apologize if I'm not pronouncing it correctly. I think it's Gilead.
A: Uh-huh.
Q: Are you aware of what Gilead is historically?
A: What I remembered was a phrase from some poem or something, "There is no balm in Gilead." It sounded great to me, so I used it.
Q: You didn't -- are you -- are you aware of any actual geographical location called Gilead?
A: No.
Q: Are you aware of any historical significance of the name Gilead?
A: No. I should. As an English major, I should .
Q: Well, we're not asking you what you should know, just --
A: I understand.
Q: -- what you know.
MR DUBAY: Goliad.
MR COOK: Goliad?
MR DUBAY: Goliad, G-o-l-i-a-d.
MR COOK: Oh, I'm sorry, Goliad. Is that --
MR COX: Wait, wait, wait, wait. This is a new question, isn't it?
MR COX: You didn't misspeak. I mean, so you're now asking about a different place called Goliad?
MR COOK: If I was mispronouncing it, I apologize.
MR COX: Well --
THE WITNESS: It's Gilead. Should I --
MR COOK: Yeah, go ahead.
MR COX: Go right ahead.
THE WITNESS: Gilead is a kind of mythic, to my mind anyway, locale. And the only thing I know about Goliad is the old Alamo series where the riders tried to go to Goliad for help. It might have been Texas, I'm not sure, Goliad, Texas.
A: They're not the same.
Q: In The Gunslinger, well, let's actually say in The Dark Tower series, we'll expand it, what role does the black bird play in The Dark Tower series?
A: I don't recall a black bird in The Dark Tower series.
Q: Well, I'm -- I'm -- I'm --
MR COX: Why don't you give a name of a black bird.
MR COOK: Well, for example, a black hawk.
THE WITNESS: I'm not even sure that there's a hawk that's black.
BY MR COOK: Well, a bird that is of the color black.
MR COX: Are you referring to Zoltan?
MR COOK: Well, that's where I'm getting to is that and others.
BY MR COOK: But there are multiple references to birds that are colored black in The Dark Tower; correct?
A: Not to my recollection.
Q: Doesn't Roland, as his weapon of choice, use a bird when he's fighting Cort, I think it is?
A: Yes.
Q: Okay. What is the bird that Roland chooses as a weapon? What kind of bird is it?
A: It's a hawk.
Q: Is it a black hawk?
A: I don't think it's described as a black hawk, no.
Q: Okay. And what -- what about Zoltan, what type of -- is it Zoltan or Zoltare (phonetic)?
A: It's Zoltan.
Q: Zoltan, yes.
A: Zoltan was named after a folk singer at the coffee house in Orono when I was a student there, Zoltan Versailles, and he and his partner used to be terrific folk singers. And I just loved that name Zoltan, so I decided that I would name -- there's a sodbuster who lives at the edge of everything in the first volume, and he's got a bird, and I can't remember what kind of bird it is. All I know is that the bird talked. He could say a few things. He said, Beans, beans, the musical fruit. The more you eat, the more you toot." But beyond that, I don't remember.
Q: And really, I guess I was focusing on the bird that Roland used as his weapon of choice. You don't remember -- I guess we can just read the book and find out.
A: Oh, no, I remember it. That was David.
Q: David. Thank you. That was the name I was stretching for.
A: Yeah.
Q: What kind of bird was David?
A: He was a hawk.
Q: Okay. But -- and I -- you already answered you don't know that you describe what color he was?
A: No.
Q: Okay. Earlier I had asked you if you had read the complaint, and you said no. Did you read the answer that was filed on your behalf in this case?
A: No.
Q: And this may be a lot of questions that I feel I need to go through even though I may know your answers.
In the answer filed on your behalf, you assert certain affirmative defenses. Okay? And one of them that you assert or that is asserted on your behalf, if you will, is that Plaintiff's purported claims for relief are barred in whole or in part by reason of his unclean hands. And do you -- just let me finish my question. You may or may not know what that means. But do you have any information or testimony that you think you will testify to support that affirmative defense?
MR COX: And you are not to reveal any information that was imparted to you by your attorneys regarding this affirmative defense.
MR COX: So independently of what you've been told by your attorneys.
THE WITNESS: Do you want to state the question again?
BY MR COOK: Sure. Basically -- let me explain to you what I'm doing, and maybe that'll make this easier. This is one -- this is potentially my only opportunity to depose you, and there are affirmative defenses that are asserted on your behalf. I know, realistically, sometimes clients don't read them, they don't know them, but I need to find out if, when we go to trial, if you're going to get up and testify in support of one of these affirmative defenses. Okay?
So this is my opportunity to ask you: Do you have information, as you sit here today, that you're going to testify to at trial that my client, Mr. Ben Dubay, has unclean hands or he has done something wrong that, therefore, his relief -- he should be denied any type of relief in this case?
MR COX: And that's independently of anything you've been told from your attorneys.
BY MR COOK: Okay. So you don't know of any testimony that you're going to give in regards to that affirmative defense?
A: That's correct.
Q: Do you have any knowledge regarding my client's ownership of the intellectual property rights of The Rook or Restin Dane?
MR COX: Other than what you've been told by your attorneys.
BY MR COOK:  So you don't know one way or the other if he owns it?
A: No.
Q: Okay. And similar question. I think I know the answer to this. Your lawyers and other people may have information on this. But do you have any testimony or knowledge as to whether or not Mr. Ben Dubay's copyright registration was improper?
A: No.
Q: Again, are you aware of another party that is not -- of another person or entity that is not a part of this lawsuit that you believe should be a party to this lawsuit?
MR COX: Other than conversations with counsel.
A:: Okay. Thank you. And I, hopefully, just have a few more questions. There's some loose ends I'd like to tie up. The first one deals with your subscribing to magazines. I'm not going to rehash what your testimony was, but I'm referring to conversations with Stephen King, Feast of Fear. Are you familiar with this book?
A: Who edited it?
Q: It says Tim Underwood and Chuck Miller.
A: Not really, no.
Q: Okay. Well, there is allegedly, an interview in here with you on page 108. And I'll read it, and then I'll give it to you and your counsel and ask you a question.
It starts at the top left. "King: Yeah, I've talked to him about that. I used to subscribe to Spacemen Famous Monsters and all those other magazines. Those bastards still owe me two issues of something because Spacemen folded. Actually, Forry did give me some Transylvanian Earth, so I have no right to bitch at him at all."
Really what I want to ask -- and I'll let you read it.
My question is: You say, "I subscribed to Spacemen and all those other magazines." What are the other magazines that you're referring to?
A: Well, I think that I subscribed for a while to Fantasy & Science Fiction. I remember that one. Spacemen. I know I subscribed to Spacemen. Those are the only two I remember.
Q: Okay. So and this goes to a response to request for admission number eight where you were asked: Admit that you were a subscriber to Warren Publishing Co. magazines. And your response -- and I can get it out and show it to you, if you'd like, but your response is: Responding party objects on the ground that this request is vague and ambiguous as to time. Irrelevant. Without waiver of the foregoing objection, admit that, as an adolescent, I briefly subscribed to Spacemen magazine, which was published by a Warren company. Except so admitted, denied.
And, then, really what I'm getting to here is: In your response to request for this admission, which was probably filed by your attorneys, you deny that you subscribed to any other Warren publications, except for Spacemen, and then in this book you say you subscribed to Spacemen, et cetera. So do you agree that you subscribed to other Warren comics besides Spacemen?
A: No, I don't. I don't agree with that. I think Spacemen was the only Warren mag that I ever subscribed to.
Q: So what's written in the interview in Feast of Fear would be inaccurate?
A: It would be inaccurate.
Q: Okay. Second and potentially final topic, we're going back to the use of the initials as symbolism, I think is how we were discussing it, and this is in On Writing, and it starts on page 197 and goes through page 200.
And what I want to ask about in particular is you're discussing -- and you can read all these pages, if you'd like. But you're discussing symbolism, including, but not limited to, the use of initials to symbolize characters. And what you say in there is: "Symbolism, and the other adornments too, does serve a useful purpose, though. It's more than just chrome on the grill. It can serve as a focusing device for both you and your reader helping to create a more unified and pleasing work. I think that when you read your manuscript over and when you talk it over, you'll see if symbolism or the potential for it exists. If it doesn't, leave well enough alone. If it does, however, if it's clearly a part of the fossil you're working to unearth, go for it. Enhance it. You're a monkey if you don't."
And what I want to ask you -- and I'll give you this to read. It's this paragraph. What I want to ask you is: When you say "you're a monkey if you don't," what do you mean by that?
A: It means you're an idiot. You're an idiot if you don't do that.
Q: Okay. And I think I'm going to ask this question again. I apologize for asking it twice. But did you use the initials, symbolism, or personification device, did you utilize that in The Dark Tower series?
MR COX: Other than he's already testified to? Because you gave him a name from --
BY MR COOK: You did not?
A: Not to my recollection.
MR COOK: Okay. That's all the questions I have.


Bilal Khanzada said…

I haven't checked in here for a while because I thought it was getting boring, but the last few posts are good quality so I guess I'll add you back to my daily bloglist. You deserve it friend :)


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